MrSpeakers Alpha PRIME: Impressions and Discussion Thread
Apr 23, 2015 at 12:44 PM Post #1,471 of 2,891
  Whoa!  Ultrabike's one post went from 10+ likes down to 5!
 
I too think the T1 is too colored to be considered a league above the DT880 or even the 650.  Also, planars have their strengths and weaknesses just like dynamics do-- they're not inherently better than dynamics.
 
On the topic of distortion, I didn't hear too much midrange distortion with the Mad Dogs and HE-400 (both having measurably lots of midrange distortion), but if it's one thing distortion in the midrange does do, it takes away from scalability of the headphones.  I found that out first hand.  Distortion in the bass is easily audible to me, and it's one thing open planars have a distinct advantage on compared to open dynamics-- their bass remains clean down low, whereas most open dynamics get too tubby.  Closed dynamics however don't struggle with this problem if designed right.


I'd say it depends on the dynamic driver TBH. I think Sennheiser reached the pinnacle of what a dynamic can do (which is vastly smoother highs) while Fostex took it up a notch and took their dynamic drivers a different way. Dynamic drivers just handle upper mid-range and the highs a lot better, while planars do everything else better, but seemingly have the potential to exceed the dynamic drivers in every way.
 
The bass aspect is mostly because of how the drivers are designed. I'm wondering, with the new Ghandi headphone aside, why nobody has tried making a dynamic/planar combo before. That would be an interesting headphone.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 12:51 PM Post #1,472 of 2,891
Disagree there Paco. Fostex drivers in particular have a lot of issues from lower midrange to treble (and bass if not properly dealt with by the enclosure). Distortion, channel imbalance, FR variance... Like I said before, Dan has to proly do a lot of custom work to make those cans work. If anything, some of the latest HFM and Audezee drivers may do better (vs previous iterations of planar drivers and Fostex), but had to contend with a lot of issues during their inception.

Many closed dynamic cans do bass pretty well IMO.

Also hybrid phones may have to deal with crossovers and positioning issues. There is been a lot of cans in the past that mixed driver technologies. They were not all that great IMO.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 1:05 PM Post #1,473 of 2,891
I don't think planars have the potential to exceed a dynamic driver in every way, they will always have (at least in the foreseeable future) limitations inherent to their own design.  For one, they don't move in a true pistonic fashion like a dynamic driver (Dan's pleating attempts to correct this?), two, they'll always have very large magnetic structure in front of them with impeding acoustic properties.  As magnets get stronger and stronger, one can employ smaller magnets to reduce the footprint of the magnets to mitigate acoustic aberrations caused by the magnets.  In the recent years, Hifiman and JPS have attempted to get around this by using single-sided magnets-- which have pros and cons of their own.  Hifiman's new HE-1000 tries to make the best of both single-sided and dual-sided magnets by introducing asymmetrical magnet structures.
 
Sennheiser's ring radiator gets around a lot of the drawbacks of the normal dynamic cone driver, but the concept of a ring radiator is not new at all.  
 
I think all forms of driver technology can make strides and get better with the future of material tech, but for now, people only might be under the false pretension that planar magnetics are inherently better than dynamics because Audeze, Hifiman and others are introducing the majority of the headphones that you see in the 1,000 dollar plus market, and often times people associate money with quality.  In other words,  really expenseive Planar Magnetics are the hip thing.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 1:23 PM Post #1,474 of 2,891
  I don't think planars have the potential to exceed a dynamic driver in every way, they will always have (at least in the foreseeable future) limitations inherent to their own design.  For one, they don't move in a true pistonic fashion like a dynamic driver (Dan's pleating attempts to correct this?), two, they'll always have very large magnetic structure in front of them with impeding acoustic properties.  As magnets get stronger and stronger, one can employ smaller magnets to reduce the footprint of the magnets to mitigate acoustic aberrations caused by the magnets.  In the recent years, Hifiman and JPS have attempted to get around this by using single-sided magnets-- which have pros and cons of their own.  Hifiman's new HE-1000 tries to make the best of both single-sided and dual-sided magnets by introducing asymmetrical magnet structures.
 
Sennheiser's ring radiator gets around a lot of the drawbacks of the normal dynamic cone driver, but the concept of a ring radiator is not new at all.  
 
I think all forms of driver technology can make strides and get better with the future of material tech, but for now, people only might be under the false pretension that planar magnetics are inherently better than dynamics because Audeze, Hifiman and others are introducing the majority of the headphones that you see in the 1,000 dollar plus market, and often times people associate money with quality.  In other words,  really expenseive Planar Magnetics are the hip thing.


I agree with you that Audeze and, to a certain extent, MrSpeakers is staking the 1000+ market. HOWEVER, the majority of companies are now taking advantage of the sub-1000 market, like Oppo, HifiMan, ZMF Headphones, MrSpeakers, and (at least in the past) Fostex. And the HE400i is a headphone that, while it may not match it in build quality or even really sturdiness, has a sound that can give the LCD 2 a run for its money while the HE560 (which I think is boring and dry a lot of the times) is considered an end-game headphone at the sub-1000 mark. Had this been last year, where a large majority of planars were past the grand mark (hell, 99% of the headphones in the past-1000 grand mark that weren't electro-stats were planars,) you would be right. But now planars are being more widely used and distributed, which will grow and advance the technology quite well.
 
That said, I've only heard one planar that handles treble in the way I enjoy similarly to a dynamic headphone, and that headphone is a modded T50RP.
 
Dan's pleated driver (which Oppo had implemented in their headphones) is an attempt to push a smaller planar driver, like the T50RP, to push more air, and therefor have better bass. It isn't the ONLY way to fix the driver's issue, but it was a pretty good solution. The issue is the variation in the drivers even after the mod, AND the mid-range distortion that comes after it.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 1:41 PM Post #1,475 of 2,891
I agree with you that Audeze and, to a certain extent, MrSpeakers is staking the 1000+ market. HOWEVER, the majority of companies are now taking advantage of the sub-1000 market, like Oppo, HifiMan, ZMF Headphones, MrSpeakers, and (at least in the past) Fostex. And the HE400i is a headphone that, while it may not match it in build quality or even really sturdiness, has a sound that can give the LCD 2 a run for its money while the HE560 (which I think is boring and dry a lot of the times) is considered an end-game headphone at the sub-1000 mark. Had this been last year, where a large majority of planars were past the grand mark (hell, 99% of the headphones in the past-1000 grand mark that weren't electro-stats were planars,) you would be right. But now planars are being more widely used and distributed, which will grow and advance the technology quite well.

That said, I've only heard one planar that handles treble in the way I enjoy similarly to a dynamic headphone, and that headphone is a modded T50RP.

Dan's pleated driver (which Oppo had implemented in their headphones) is an attempt to push a smaller planar driver, like the T50RP, to push more air, and therefor have better bass. It isn't the ONLY way to fix the driver's issue, but it was a pretty good solution. The issue is the variation in the drivers even after the mod, AND the mid-range distortion that comes after it.


Like TMRaven said. Driver technology and price does not guaratee performance.

Also there are many ways to improve a planar (or any) driver's low frequency performance. Not just knurling or pleating. You need to increase compliance in the benefit for lows and at the expense of highs. There usually is a sweet spot and the results are the combination of many factors.

Also, knurling improves distortion according to Dan's website. So it doesn't work, cuz distortion is not the Holy Grail :tongue_smile:
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 2:12 PM Post #1,476 of 2,891
Like TMRaven said. Driver technology and price does not guaratee performance.

Also there are many ways to improve a planar (or any) driver's low frequency performance. Not just knurling or pleating. You need to increase compliance in the benefit for lows and at the expense of highs. There usually is a sweet spot and the results are the combination of many factors.

Also, knurling improves distortion according to Dan's website. So it doesn't work, cuz distortion is not the Holy Grail
tongue_smile.gif

 
I was more countering that post-1000 planars are not as hip as you'd think. Maybe here, where we're all very much hype-train riders, but other places....eh, I'd argue Audeze has a hold on that entire part of the market (for planars that is.)
 
On your second point: That is actually what I stated. A completely flat headphone is boring as hell to most people, as headphones aren't really aiming for the same kind of thing as speakers do. While a speaker can be universally considered good by everyone, a headphone has to rely on psycho-acoustics, which is why the subjective camp of this hobby is so well numbered. That's another spiel for another day though. I've seen some T50RP mods, like the Blackwood and Vibro, try to take on more dynamic characteristics (like the Vibro having heavy mid-bass or the Blackwood's smoother, more controlled high-end.) Or, in the HE560's case, try to take on more treble detail (at the expense of the energy.)
 
Edit: I'm wondering if the distortion is caused by the driver variation and how well (or not well) the driver reacts to the mod. -shrugs-
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 2:25 PM Post #1,477 of 2,891
  I don't think planars have the potential to exceed a dynamic driver in every way, they will always have (at least in the foreseeable future) limitations inherent to their own design.  For one, they don't move in a true pistonic fashion like a dynamic driver (Dan's pleating attempts to correct this?), two, they'll always have very large magnetic structure in front of them with impeding acoustic properties.  As magnets get stronger and stronger, one can employ smaller magnets to reduce the footprint of the magnets to mitigate acoustic aberrations caused by the magnets.  In the recent years, Hifiman and JPS have attempted to get around this by using single-sided magnets-- which have pros and cons of their own.  Hifiman's new HE-1000 tries to make the best of both single-sided and dual-sided magnets by introducing asymmetrical magnet structures.
 
Sennheiser's ring radiator gets around a lot of the drawbacks of the normal dynamic cone driver, but the concept of a ring radiator is not new at all.
 
I think all forms of driver technology can make strides and get better with the future of material tech, but for now, people only might be under the false pretension that planar magnetics are inherently better than dynamics because Audeze, Hifiman and others are introducing the majority of the headphones that you see in the 1,000 dollar plus market, and often times people associate money with quality.  In other words,  really expenseive Planar Magnetics are the hip thing.

I really wish I could argue against this.  I can't.  I LOVE planars, but that's a preference. That's a very well-balanced opinion, TM.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 2:27 PM Post #1,478 of 2,891
Yes. Youtube has it's limitations depending on many factors. The quality of the music recording is a big factor. That said, many times bad recordings can become more revealing than good ones. Something that sounds edgy will sound bareable through some cans, and completely unbareable in some others. I'm not as familiar with the DT880s as I am with the HD600s and HD650s. I'm more familiar with the DT990s (and prefer to forget them). I've heard the DT880s though and thought they were not bad at all.

Based on technical data, the DT880 might on average roll off a little at 500 Hz relative to the AD which starts to roll off a little around 2 kHz. That said the ADs tend to develop some losses around 3 to 4 kHz and recover above 5 kHz remaining somewhat balanced after that. The DT880 get a little bright relatively speaking in the 5 to 10 kHz region. So you can match data with experience in that the DT880 might still be a little bright with the sample song you provided compared to an AD. The loss in the mids developing sooner than with the ADs together with a more balanced lower treble might correlate to your experience with issues with cymbal detail.

That said, of all the Beyers, the DT880 is proly the best one to my ears. My ears were not in pain as with most of the other Beyers, but they were still a little bright though. The DT880 might gain on the ADs in terms of high frequency extension and distortion which affects resolution. However, I actually prefer the tone of the ADs (the latest ones given the many versions and in the absense of issues which are not uncommon with these cans).

I wouldn't worry to much about open cans loosing details to the room, unless what you mean by that is lack of isolation and ability to remove ambient noise. If blocking out outside distractions is a concern, then definitively a closed can such as the ADs is an asset.

In most of these things, I guess you pick the cans that work best with the music that moves you. It may be that you got a set of well matched, lower distortion AD drivers there, and that the tone they provide is what you are looking for.

 
I have to agree with everything you said here. I think we can respectfully come to terms that with the music I listen to, the AD spanks the DT880. The DT880 has only a few advantages and that would be the airiness(whether natural sounding or unnatural is debatable) and midrange speed and attack. Treble wise, it is sparkly; not neutral or detailed like the AD. Bass wise, it doesn't even come close. My DT880 favors acoustic music, movies, video games, and low-volume listening. The AD handles all types of music without problems.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 2:37 PM Post #1,479 of 2,891
I'm wondering if the distortion is caused by the driver variation and how well (or not well) the driver reacts to the mod. -shrugs-


It's probably a combination of many things. But a suspect the driver by itself may exhibit part to part variations due to Fostex operations.


I have to agree with everything you said here. I think we can respectfully come to terms that with the music I listen to, the AD spanks the DT880. The DT880 has only a few advantages and that would be the airiness(whether natural sounding or unnatural is debatable) and midrange speed and attack. Treble wise, it is sparkly; not neutral or detailed like the AD. Bass wise, it doesn't even come close. My DT880 favors acoustic music, movies, video games, and low-volume listening. The AD handles all types of music without problems.


Yup. A good AD is probably more forgiving than some other cans while still mantaining an agreeable tone. It may not be very resolving with certain types of music. It's always a diz for dat thing IMO.

There are other options that may suit your preferences. Among the Fostex based mods one of my favorites is the Paradox. It's a little pricier and more of a custom product though.

EDIT: Actually Paradox might be cheaper than the AD and the APD depending on options. MD is cheaper.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM Post #1,480 of 2,891
It's probably a combination of many things. But a suspect the driver by itself may exhibit part to part variations due to Fostex operations.
Yup. A good AD is probably more forgiving than some other cans while still mantaining an agreeable tone. It may not be very resolving with certain types of music. It's always a diz for dat thing IMO.

There are other options that may suit your preferences. Among the Fostex based mods one of my favorites is the Paradox. It's a little pricier and more of a custom product though.

EDIT: Actually Paradox might be cheaper than the AD and the APD depending on options. MD is cheaper.

I'm really shaking my head at the idea that the Ad or AP are not very resolving, especially based on the music played.  Rarely have I heard anything, speaker or heaphone, more resolving than the AD/AP. And even then, the resolution was generally a boost in treble at the expense of neutrality. When I can hear the background musicians breathing, that's pretty much the level of detail I'm looking for.  Maybe other HP's can also reveal the heartbeat of the rhythm section, but that kinda distracts from the music.
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 3:35 PM Post #1,481 of 2,891
  I'm really shaking my head at the idea that the Ad or AP are not very resolving, especially based on the music played.  Rarely have I heard anything, speaker or heaphone, more resolving than the AD/AP. And even then, the resolution was generally a boost in treble at the expense of neutrality. When I can hear the background musicians breathing, that's pretty much the level of detail I'm looking for.  Maybe other HP's can also reveal the heartbeat of the rhythm section, but that kinda distracts from the music.

 
He probably means clarity or the resolution in the higher frequencies. The AD/AP are very linear until you get to the upper-mids, where the AD becomes very dark and the AP takes the MD's problem and elevates it (as in, reduction of the upper mids/sucking them out and replacing it with a decently high spike into the highs.)
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 3:47 PM Post #1,482 of 2,891
   
He probably means clarity or the resolution in the higher frequencies. The AD/AP are very linear until you get to the upper-mids, where the AD becomes very dark and the AP takes the MD's problem and elevates it (as in, reduction of the upper mids/sucking them out and replacing it with a decently high spike into the highs.)

That falls in line with how I heard the AD. I haven't spent enough time with the AP to really determine. I got the Theta DS Pro Progeny DAC which is known for adding upper mid and (lower)bass slam and being like a sample of what the Gen V A and other great R2R DACs sound like. After that acquisition it has really changed my opinions of how I heard the Alpha Dogs. Maybe I am self-correcting the "headphones fault" with a DAC that can scale the Alpha Dogs to a higher level than the Bifrost Uber I also own
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 4:39 PM Post #1,483 of 2,891
The Prime is by my side since one week now - time for a short story.....
 
Many days - thought about closed headphones. My wife is watching TV at the same time in the room....The offered cans in Germany seemed not to be my taste because of design and/or sound. Fostex TH 600 a little too neutral, Beyerdynamics T70 a little too bright, Denon AHD 7100 and Audeze EL8 not my design, Final Audio Pandora too stormy....
 
Many hours - struggling through the web searching other opportunities. Found some interesting sites about Headphones, especially this forum. Read so much from top to down and vice versa. Found out  a little about 50RP Mods. Told myself that this sound could be the right direction. Watched out what stuff I could have a chance to get delivered to Germany. The final choice was the Prime (black version).
 
3 weeks - delivery time was a little hell for me. At the end the parcel service needed five days for the very long of distance of not more than 170 miles from Dutch reseller in Rotterdam to my Hometown in Germany.
 
5 Minutes - listening. After 5 minutes unpacking. A little bright sound. Ears need a time to burn-in to get adequate to the equipment sound....But the tendency was clear. 
 
1 hour - listening. This is my sound. Powerful, dynamic, fresh and fast high range, fine arranged mids, sounding, well done dosed. Effortless handling of every challenge. Yes, that´s it.
 
10 hours - listening up to now. And the permanent wish to play louder and louder. This is what I want!
 
 
Thank you so much guys - for all the information and opinions you are sharing here - it was excellent help to find the best cans for me. Now I got them! So Mrspeakers reached Germany!
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 7:11 PM Post #1,484 of 2,891
  The Prime is by my side since one week now - time for a short story.....
 
Many days - thought about closed headphones. My wife is watching TV at the same time in the room....The offered cans in Germany seemed not to be my taste because of design and/or sound. Fostex TH 600 a little too neutral, Beyerdynamics T70 a little too bright, Denon AHD 7100 and Audeze EL8 not my design, Final Audio Pandora too stormy....
 
Many hours - struggling through the web searching other opportunities. Found some interesting sites about Headphones, especially this forum. Read so much from top to down and vice versa. Found out  a little about 50RP Mods. Told myself that this sound could be the right direction. Watched out what stuff I could have a chance to get delivered to Germany. The final choice was the Prime (black version).
 
3 weeks - delivery time was a little hell for me. At the end the parcel service needed five days for the very long of distance of not more than 170 miles from Dutch reseller in Rotterdam to my Hometown in Germany.
 
5 Minutes - listening. After 5 minutes unpacking. A little bright sound. Ears need a time to burn-in to get adequate to the equipment sound....But the tendency was clear. 
 
1 hour - listening. This is my sound. Powerful, dynamic, fresh and fast high range, fine arranged mids, sounding, well done dosed. Effortless handling of every challenge. Yes, that´s it.
 
10 hours - listening up to now. And the permanent wish to play louder and louder. This is what I want!
 
 
Thank you so much guys - for all the information and opinions you are sharing here - it was excellent help to find the best cans for me. Now I got them! So Mrspeakers reached Germany!

what amp are you using?
 
Apr 23, 2015 at 7:45 PM Post #1,485 of 2,891
I don't know why people are fussing over harmonic distortions so much :S. 1266 has a lot of harmonic distortion as well, but its in even order though, not to mention tube amps almost always have higher distortion figures than solid state.

I think aside from the THD plot the alpha prime looks to be 1k headphone in the other measurements, although would really like it if it were cheaper :p (I need a closed back) lol.
 

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