djnagle
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Can anyone tell me the gain of the tube outputs???? I am trying design a GM70 amp and would like to know the gain coming into the amp. Cheers.
Maverick Audio DAC/Amp
tommo21
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Got my D1 delivered by DHL today.....listening to it right now. Opened it up and was a bit dissapointed. I ordered the D1 with the GE 5670 Tube, but I only got the chinese stock tube. I've ordered other tubes but I haven't gotten them yet. Sent a ticket to the Maverick support center. Hopefully they will help me out with this. But I will say this.....totally awesome buildquality...I loved this little DAC even before I got it plugged in. Sounds very good even with the stock tube in it. Can't wait to roll other tubes and opamps...
DannyBuoy
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Quote:
At some point in learning about audio (very general statement I know) I had to take the plunge and actually try different settings, devices, tweaks, etc. myself and A/B it and make a judgement myself on the results. Once I did this I started to get my own opinion of what I thought mattered and what was not discernable by my current understanding of what I was hearing (critical listening takes training and patience and I realize I am very novice at it compared to others with trained or especially gifted natural abilities).
I would suggest you change the volume on Windows and adjust for it on the D1 or any other DAC/AMP and see for yourself. Speaking for my system configuration, and my ears, I notice a rather big difference when I put the volume at 50% in windows and adjust for volume difference on D1. The additional gain of the preamp on the D1 to compensate for lowered input appears to accentuate the sound in the same way it adds flavor to the sound to begin with. Think of it this way. It you have the volume in Windows at 100% and the D1 is set at 9 o'clock for normal listening levels. You have let's just say for sake of this argument 1.3 Volts of signal going into the DAC. That signal level is increased as it goes into the output section and on it's way to your ears, but at the same time it is "flavored" by the digital signal processing and active circuitry along the way. Now if you reduce the Windows volume to 50% in Windows and the input drops to .9 volts and the D1 volume knob is turned to 11 o'clock to adjust so you hear relatively the same volume levels to your ears; try to now invision the same signal passing through the initial preamp circuitry with a lower signal level to begin with. All of the "preamp" circuit components are dealing with a lower signal level and at some point in the schmatic design the voltage level is finally boosted to the same level going out to your headphones. If you know even a little bit about active circuits including filtering or capacitors, you should be able to understand that a change in levels in the input, will be impacted by the very nature of how an active circuit acts upon the signal to begin with. One of the goals in a design is to minimize the flavoring that an active circuit performs throughout the range of input/output levels accross all frequencies.
But, like I said, it is up to you as to when you want to take the plunge and begin to build your own experiences and opinions (I am speaking to a few others in this thread as well) and instead of just beliving in the opinion of others you will start to believe in what you are hearing and feeling yourself and you should go through an ah ha moment when you begin to realize you can take control of the sound yourself and begin to tweak it yourself to get to the ideally flavored sound that appeals to you most. If you do not hear a difference when you make a change to something, you may not have given it enough time to notice the difference. Some things like power cords (AC Power cord) or a better USB cable may be so subtle that it takes days, or weeks to be able to sense the differences as your brain has to preform enough sampling of the sound to build a library of sorts that it can reference as data points that reflect the differences in sound signature. Other times you may give it days or weeks and never reach a conclusion at all and that is where you are on the path of training your ear/brain relationship with the language it needs to be able to identify, quantify, and articulate the definition of the qualities of what you are hearing.
BUT, this is my impression of how this has worked for me, and me only. Someone else may have taken a different path, and uses different techniques or methods and their experience and opinion may be altogether different then mine and theirs is correct for themselves, and mine to myself.
Hope that helps.
| Originally Posted by djnagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif My Windows volume control does not effect the level at all. I am running an external HD and going to the D1 via USB. |
At some point in learning about audio (very general statement I know) I had to take the plunge and actually try different settings, devices, tweaks, etc. myself and A/B it and make a judgement myself on the results. Once I did this I started to get my own opinion of what I thought mattered and what was not discernable by my current understanding of what I was hearing (critical listening takes training and patience and I realize I am very novice at it compared to others with trained or especially gifted natural abilities).
I would suggest you change the volume on Windows and adjust for it on the D1 or any other DAC/AMP and see for yourself. Speaking for my system configuration, and my ears, I notice a rather big difference when I put the volume at 50% in windows and adjust for volume difference on D1. The additional gain of the preamp on the D1 to compensate for lowered input appears to accentuate the sound in the same way it adds flavor to the sound to begin with. Think of it this way. It you have the volume in Windows at 100% and the D1 is set at 9 o'clock for normal listening levels. You have let's just say for sake of this argument 1.3 Volts of signal going into the DAC. That signal level is increased as it goes into the output section and on it's way to your ears, but at the same time it is "flavored" by the digital signal processing and active circuitry along the way. Now if you reduce the Windows volume to 50% in Windows and the input drops to .9 volts and the D1 volume knob is turned to 11 o'clock to adjust so you hear relatively the same volume levels to your ears; try to now invision the same signal passing through the initial preamp circuitry with a lower signal level to begin with. All of the "preamp" circuit components are dealing with a lower signal level and at some point in the schmatic design the voltage level is finally boosted to the same level going out to your headphones. If you know even a little bit about active circuits including filtering or capacitors, you should be able to understand that a change in levels in the input, will be impacted by the very nature of how an active circuit acts upon the signal to begin with. One of the goals in a design is to minimize the flavoring that an active circuit performs throughout the range of input/output levels accross all frequencies.
But, like I said, it is up to you as to when you want to take the plunge and begin to build your own experiences and opinions (I am speaking to a few others in this thread as well) and instead of just beliving in the opinion of others you will start to believe in what you are hearing and feeling yourself and you should go through an ah ha moment when you begin to realize you can take control of the sound yourself and begin to tweak it yourself to get to the ideally flavored sound that appeals to you most. If you do not hear a difference when you make a change to something, you may not have given it enough time to notice the difference. Some things like power cords (AC Power cord) or a better USB cable may be so subtle that it takes days, or weeks to be able to sense the differences as your brain has to preform enough sampling of the sound to build a library of sorts that it can reference as data points that reflect the differences in sound signature. Other times you may give it days or weeks and never reach a conclusion at all and that is where you are on the path of training your ear/brain relationship with the language it needs to be able to identify, quantify, and articulate the definition of the qualities of what you are hearing.
BUT, this is my impression of how this has worked for me, and me only. Someone else may have taken a different path, and uses different techniques or methods and their experience and opinion may be altogether different then mine and theirs is correct for themselves, and mine to myself.
Hope that helps.
MartinV56
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Quote:
Technical Specifications:
Input Impedance: Analog 100 kohm
Digital 75 kohm
THD: Transistor output - <= 0.001%
Tube output - <= 0.1%
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 30kHz +/-1dB
Maximum Output: 1000mW x 2 (32ohm)
500mW x 2 (300ohm)
300mW x 2 (600ohm)
S/N Ratio: Transistor – 96dB
Tube – 90 dB
| Originally Posted by djnagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can anyone tell me the gain of the tube outputs???? I am trying design a GM70 amp and would like to know the gain coming into the amp. Cheers. |
Technical Specifications:
Input Impedance: Analog 100 kohm
Digital 75 kohm
THD: Transistor output - <= 0.001%
Tube output - <= 0.1%
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 30kHz +/-1dB
Maximum Output: 1000mW x 2 (32ohm)
500mW x 2 (300ohm)
300mW x 2 (600ohm)
S/N Ratio: Transistor – 96dB
Tube – 90 dB
ninjikiran
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Quote:
That technique is about right, it only takes me about a week. After which putting on my previous headphones everything they lack seems readily apparent. If the difference is drastic though there are some things I pick up immediately, everything else takes time though.
| Originally Posted by DannyBuoy /img/forum/go_quote.gif At some point in learning about audio (very general statement I know) I had to take the plunge and actually try different settings, devices, tweaks, etc. myself and A/B it and make a judgement myself on the results. Once I did this I started to get my own opinion of what I thought mattered and what was not discernable by my current understanding of what I was hearing (critical listening takes training and patience and I realize I am very novice at it compared to others with trained or especially gifted natural abilities). I would suggest you change the volume on Windows and adjust for it on the D1 or any other DAC/AMP and see for yourself. Speaking for my system configuration, and my ears, I notice a rather big difference when I put the volume at 50% in windows and adjust for volume difference on D1. The additional gain of the preamp on the D1 to compensate for lowered input appears to accentuate the sound in the same way it adds flavor to the sound to begin with. Think of it this way. It you have the volume in Windows at 100% and the D1 is set at 9 o'clock for normal listening levels. You have let's just say for sake of this argument 1.3 Volts of signal going into the DAC. That signal level is increased as it goes into the output section and on it's way to your ears, but at the same time it is "flavored" by the digital signal processing and active circuitry along the way. Now if you reduce the Windows volume to 50% in Windows and the input drops to .9 volts and the D1 volume knob is turned to 11 o'clock to adjust so you hear relatively the same volume levels to your ears; try to now invision the same signal passing through the initial preamp circuitry with a lower signal level to begin with. All of the "preamp" circuit components are dealing with a lower signal level and at some point in the schmatic design the voltage level is finally boosted to the same level going out to your headphones. If you know even a little bit about active circuits including filtering or capacitors, you should be able to understand that a change in levels in the input, will be impacted by the very nature of how an active circuit acts upon the signal to begin with. One of the goals in a design is to minimize the flavoring that an active circuit performs throughout the range of input/output levels accross all frequencies. But, like I said, it is up to you as to when you want to take the plunge and begin to build your own experiences and opinions (I am speaking to a few others in this thread as well) and instead of just beliving in the opinion of others you will start to believe in what you are hearing and feeling yourself and you should go through an ah ha moment when you begin to realize you can take control of the sound yourself and begin to tweak it yourself to get to the ideally flavored sound that appeals to you most. If you do not hear a difference when you make a change to something, you may not have given it enough time to notice the difference. Some things like power cords (AC Power cord) or a better USB cable may be so subtle that it takes days, or weeks to be able to sense the differences as your brain has to preform enough sampling of the sound to build a library of sorts that it can reference as data points that reflect the differences in sound signature. Other times you may give it days or weeks and never reach a conclusion at all and that is where you are on the path of training your ear/brain relationship with the language it needs to be able to identify, quantify, and articulate the definition of the qualities of what you are hearing. BUT, this is my impression of how this has worked for me, and me only. Someone else may have taken a different path, and uses different techniques or methods and their experience and opinion may be altogether different then mine and theirs is correct for themselves, and mine to myself. Hope that helps. |
That technique is about right, it only takes me about a week. After which putting on my previous headphones everything they lack seems readily apparent. If the difference is drastic though there are some things I pick up immediately, everything else takes time though.
djnagle
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Gee Danny, maybe I did not give enough information your maybe you missed the base question. I am very satisfied with my ability determine what is good sound for me and how, in gerneral, things work. What I was asking, maybe not directly enough, was why the windows XP volume control (the one at the bottom right of my screen) and (not the volume control in Media Monkey) becomes disabled when I am using the D1?
Quote:
Quote:
| Originally Posted by DannyBuoy /img/forum/go_quote.gif At some point in learning about audio (very general statement I know) I had to take the plunge and actually try different settings, devices, tweaks, etc. myself and A/B it and make a judgement myself on the results. Once I did this I started to get my own opinion of what I thought mattered and what was not discernable by my current understanding of what I was hearing (critical listening takes training and patience and I realize I am very novice at it compared to others with trained or especially gifted natural abilities). I would suggest you change the volume on Windows and adjust for it on the D1 or any other DAC/AMP and see for yourself. Speaking for my system configuration, and my ears, I notice a rather big difference when I put the volume at 50% in windows and adjust for volume difference on D1. The additional gain of the preamp on the D1 to compensate for lowered input appears to accentuate the sound in the same way it adds flavor to the sound to begin with. Think of it this way. It you have the volume in Windows at 100% and the D1 is set at 9 o'clock for normal listening levels. You have let's just say for sake of this argument 1.3 Volts of signal going into the DAC. That signal level is increased as it goes into the output section and on it's way to your ears, but at the same time it is "flavored" by the digital signal processing and active circuitry along the way. Now if you reduce the Windows volume to 50% in Windows and the input drops to .9 volts and the D1 volume knob is turned to 11 o'clock to adjust so you hear relatively the same volume levels to your ears; try to now invision the same signal passing through the initial preamp circuitry with a lower signal level to begin with. All of the "preamp" circuit components are dealing with a lower signal level and at some point in the schmatic design the voltage level is finally boosted to the same level going out to your headphones. If you know even a little bit about active circuits including filtering or capacitors, you should be able to understand that a change in levels in the input, will be impacted by the very nature of how an active circuit acts upon the signal to begin with. One of the goals in a design is to minimize the flavoring that an active circuit performs throughout the range of input/output levels accross all frequencies. But, like I said, it is up to you as to when you want to take the plunge and begin to build your own experiences and opinions (I am speaking to a few others in this thread as well) and instead of just beliving in the opinion of others you will start to believe in what you are hearing and feeling yourself and you should go through an ah ha moment when you begin to realize you can take control of the sound yourself and begin to tweak it yourself to get to the ideally flavored sound that appeals to you most. If you do not hear a difference when you make a change to something, you may not have given it enough time to notice the difference. Some things like power cords (AC Power cord) or a better USB cable may be so subtle that it takes days, or weeks to be able to sense the differences as your brain has to preform enough sampling of the sound to build a library of sorts that it can reference as data points that reflect the differences in sound signature. Other times you may give it days or weeks and never reach a conclusion at all and that is where you are on the path of training your ear/brain relationship with the language it needs to be able to identify, quantify, and articulate the definition of the qualities of what you are hearing. BUT, this is my impression of how this has worked for me, and me only. Someone else may have taken a different path, and uses different techniques or methods and their experience and opinion may be altogether different then mine and theirs is correct for themselves, and mine to myself. Hope that helps. |
djnagle
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Quote:
Thanks Martin, so I will assume that the headphone, SS, and tube outputs are all the same gain?
| Originally Posted by MartinV56 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Technical Specifications: Input Impedance: Analog 100 kohm Digital 75 kohm THD: Transistor output - <= 0.001% Tube output - <= 0.1% Frequency Response: 20Hz – 30kHz +/-1dB Maximum Output: 1000mW x 2 (32ohm) 500mW x 2 (300ohm) 300mW x 2 (600ohm) S/N Ratio: Transistor – 96dB Tube – 90 dB |
Thanks Martin, so I will assume that the headphone, SS, and tube outputs are all the same gain?
MartinV56
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Headphone is only SS
JustVisit
MOT: Maverick Audio
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Quote:
Sorry for the mess up. We will send you a new 5670 tube first thing tomorrow morning
| Originally Posted by tommo21 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Got my D1 delivered by DHL today.....listening to it right now. Opened it up and was a bit dissapointed. I ordered the D1 with the GE 5670 Tube, but I only got the chinese stock tube. I've ordered other tubes but I haven't gotten them yet. Sent a ticket to the Maverick support center. Hopefully they will help me out with this. But I will say this.....totally awesome buildquality...I loved this little DAC even before I got it plugged in. Sounds very good even with the stock tube in it. Can't wait to roll other tubes and opamps... |
Sorry for the mess up. We will send you a new 5670 tube first thing tomorrow morning
JustVisit
MOT: Maverick Audio
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Quote:
DannyBuoy, thanks a lot for sharing your experience with us. In addition, I want to thank you for helping us trouble shooting the USB "bit-perfect" issue, that means a lot to me and the community.
| Originally Posted by DannyBuoy /img/forum/go_quote.gif At some point in learning about audio (very general statement I know) I had to take the plunge and actually try different settings, devices, tweaks, etc. myself and A/B it and make a judgement myself on the results. Once I did this I started to get my own opinion of what I thought mattered and what was not discernable by my current understanding of what I was hearing (critical listening takes training and patience and I realize I am very novice at it compared to others with trained or especially gifted natural abilities).... |
DannyBuoy, thanks a lot for sharing your experience with us. In addition, I want to thank you for helping us trouble shooting the USB "bit-perfect" issue, that means a lot to me and the community.
JustVisit
MOT: Maverick Audio
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Quote:
It is normal for you get this noise. We use "hardware" audio selector and it is the noise from switching between different digital inputs.
| Originally Posted by Legis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mave's sound has very good clarity with both outputs and bass weights a ton but it still manages to put out good resolution. Sound is full, present and has the size of Ronnie Coleman in year 2005. All this even with quite young piece (10h listening) with stock op-amps and stock tube. Only thing that I can point out - which is very, very minor - is the little noise that comes from speakers if you change between digital inputs that have signal coming in. Does this happen also with you? To test it stop all signals from the source(s), connect at least optical and USB cable between mave and source(s), and then just swap inputs from input selector. Is there any "zirp" noises when you change for. ex. from optical to USB or coaxial. This noise does not occur if I change the input between analog inputs. |
It is normal for you get this noise. We use "hardware" audio selector and it is the noise from switching between different digital inputs.
MartinV56
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I'm thinking of a NOS Dac 8X1543 with the tubemagic as tube buffer , think that can be experienced in that direction, suggestions are welcome
B-Dawk20
Headphoneus Supremus
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Hi Guys, I just got done reading the whole thread and I am EXTREMELY interested in this seemingly great piece of machinery. I am just now getting into the world of higher quality audio and I really want to take my next step up. My first step was a pair of Koss Portapros and I was astonished at first coming from ibuds and other cheapo headphones. The next thing I did was get a new sound card because my friend told me it would be a vast improvement over on board sound, even if it was the cheapest one. I was pleasantly surprised as well there. Then I decided that since I was always so happy when I upgraded my sound, I would invest in some low end entry audiophile headphones(AD700) so to say and it was my biggest surprise as of yet. So much was different about music when I first got my AD700's that I wanted to learn so much more.
Since then, I have been doing all my reasearch and on this forums have found that I should do myself a big favor and before investing into any other thing, I should really get a better setup for my cans before I go get my next pair of headphones. Well, I have been looking for a good deal for an amp and a DAC and this seems like a dream come true but I have some concerns before I save up my money for this thing.
1. Does this really do [i[that[/i] bad with low impedence cans? I don't want to change the gain since I do plan on getting some of the higher tier headphones like the hd650 and K701 later, but for now I am going to be using the AD700's, Portapros, and the MS1s which I plan on getting next. If it is just you guys being picky(which I hope to be in the future ^_^) I can understand, but I am not there yet and can deal with a smaller issue if this is one of them.
2. As I said before, I'm still a newbie to this stuff and I am not big on swapping in parts or so yet but is it really recommended to do so? A lot of you guys seem to be hell bent on getting new op amps and tubes for the unit even before you try it out. I'm not trying to insult your methods or anything, I just want to know is it really that big a difference that I would want to upgrade ASAP. If it is a good idea, should I go with the LT1364 & LM4562 combo? You guys seem to really love these two. As for the tube...I'm not sure what a preamp is used for so I don't know what to do with it. Can I use an RCA to female 3.5mm and use it that way?
3. How big of a difference is burn in with the components? I've never really had the experience of needing to do something like that. I tried to do it with my AD700s but people told me around here that there really isn't a difference with my cans and I think I'm over 200 hours in listening time wise and nowhere through playing them did I hear a big change.
4. Not really a question about the amp, but right now, I have a problem discerning VBR and 320 from FLAC and in rare cases 192 from FLAC. Will this be much more apparent when Iget an amp and dac?
Thanks in advance, head-fi guys. You dudes are evil for getting me addicted to this stuff ^_~
Since then, I have been doing all my reasearch and on this forums have found that I should do myself a big favor and before investing into any other thing, I should really get a better setup for my cans before I go get my next pair of headphones. Well, I have been looking for a good deal for an amp and a DAC and this seems like a dream come true but I have some concerns before I save up my money for this thing.
1. Does this really do [i[that[/i] bad with low impedence cans? I don't want to change the gain since I do plan on getting some of the higher tier headphones like the hd650 and K701 later, but for now I am going to be using the AD700's, Portapros, and the MS1s which I plan on getting next. If it is just you guys being picky(which I hope to be in the future ^_^) I can understand, but I am not there yet and can deal with a smaller issue if this is one of them.
2. As I said before, I'm still a newbie to this stuff and I am not big on swapping in parts or so yet but is it really recommended to do so? A lot of you guys seem to be hell bent on getting new op amps and tubes for the unit even before you try it out. I'm not trying to insult your methods or anything, I just want to know is it really that big a difference that I would want to upgrade ASAP. If it is a good idea, should I go with the LT1364 & LM4562 combo? You guys seem to really love these two. As for the tube...I'm not sure what a preamp is used for so I don't know what to do with it. Can I use an RCA to female 3.5mm and use it that way?
3. How big of a difference is burn in with the components? I've never really had the experience of needing to do something like that. I tried to do it with my AD700s but people told me around here that there really isn't a difference with my cans and I think I'm over 200 hours in listening time wise and nowhere through playing them did I hear a big change.
4. Not really a question about the amp, but right now, I have a problem discerning VBR and 320 from FLAC and in rare cases 192 from FLAC. Will this be much more apparent when Iget an amp and dac?
Thanks in advance, head-fi guys. You dudes are evil for getting me addicted to this stuff ^_~
_Spanky_
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Quote:
There's just some noise from the high gain. Once you have something playing, you don't really notice it. I've found out that I have media that has noise in it that is louder than what I hear with nothing playing. With that said, Ryan has lowered the gain in the newer models. If you haven't ordered, chances are you'll get a model with reduced gain and thus reduced noise.
Quote:
Swapping opamps and tubes makes a huge improvement to the unit. However, depending on your experience the bottom stock model may be a huge improvement to you. It's very easy to change the opamps/tube and if you get the chance, I suggest doing so.
Quote:
Big. I thought my headphones got better with burn-in but it's really noticeable in the Maverick. Get a couple days or a week on the Maverick and you'll notice a pretty nice difference, especially if you swap the opamps.
Quote:
The more you put into your setup, the more you'll hear. You could probably go out and buy $.99 earbuds and not hear the difference between 64kbps MP3 and FLAC. That's just your equipment
However it seems like a slipperly slope. There comes a point where the money you put in doesn't go as far. Your first pair of nice headphones will be amazing, the next higher-up pair will have improvements but probably won't amaze you as much.
| Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1. Does this really do [i[that bad with low impedence cans? I don't want to change the gain since I do plan on getting some of the higher tier headphones like the hd650 and K701 later, but for now I am going to be using the AD700's, Portapros, and the MS1s which I plan on getting next. If it is just you guys being picky(which I hope to be in the future ^_^) I can understand, but I am not there yet and can deal with a smaller issue if this is one of them.[/i] |
There's just some noise from the high gain. Once you have something playing, you don't really notice it. I've found out that I have media that has noise in it that is louder than what I hear with nothing playing. With that said, Ryan has lowered the gain in the newer models. If you haven't ordered, chances are you'll get a model with reduced gain and thus reduced noise.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 2. As I said before, I'm still a newbie to this stuff and I am not big on swapping in parts or so yet but is it really recommended to do so? A lot of you guys seem to be hell bent on getting new op amps and tubes for the unit even before you try it out. I'm not trying to insult your methods or anything, I just want to know is it really that big a difference that I would want to upgrade ASAP. If it is a good idea, should I go with the LT1364 & LM4562 combo? You guys seem to really love these two. As for the tube...I'm not sure what a preamp is used for so I don't know what to do with it. Can I use an RCA to female 3.5mm and use it that way? |
Swapping opamps and tubes makes a huge improvement to the unit. However, depending on your experience the bottom stock model may be a huge improvement to you. It's very easy to change the opamps/tube and if you get the chance, I suggest doing so.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 3. How big of a difference is burn in with the components? I've never really had the experience of needing to do something like that. I tried to do it with my AD700s but people told me around here that there really isn't a difference with my cans and I think I'm over 200 hours in listening time wise and nowhere through playing them did I hear a big change. |
Big. I thought my headphones got better with burn-in but it's really noticeable in the Maverick. Get a couple days or a week on the Maverick and you'll notice a pretty nice difference, especially if you swap the opamps.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by B-Dawk20 /img/forum/go_quote.gif 4. Not really a question about the amp, but right now, I have a problem discerning VBR and 320 from FLAC and in rare cases 192 from FLAC. Will this be much more apparent when Iget an amp and dac? |
The more you put into your setup, the more you'll hear. You could probably go out and buy $.99 earbuds and not hear the difference between 64kbps MP3 and FLAC. That's just your equipment
B-Dawk20
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Thanks for your reply. I hope some others can help me out as well.
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