[ProjectDenz]

Quote:

 
So what's the fine line between boosted treble levels and harsh treble? How does one see this in an FR graph?

 
FR graphs don't tell you how good something sounds. I think there's other types of graphs for that but I forgot the name.

 

[obobskivich]

FR graphs don't tell you how good something sounds. I think there's other types of graphs for that but I forgot the name.

Indeed. You have to look at the response in the time and phase domains as well - CSD, impulse response, and square wave response all methods for this. Tyll will publish square wave (and TMK he's the only one doing that); Golden Ears will compute and publish CSD (Purrin, here on Head-Fi, also does CSD - you cannot compare Purrin's graphs to GE's graphs (just like you can't compare GE FR to InnerFidelity FR).

My understanding, mostly based on experience and other users' accounts, is that some resonance can be a good thing. But I couldn't tell you what the ideal resonance pattern looks like (either overall or for me); my current top picks are so dramatically different that it further confuses the issue imho. This is why I like subjective listening tests.

There's a good article about this that Tyll recent wrote:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/presto-change-o-measurement-transformations

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

 
It seems like your ideal bass presentation is very similar to what the Q40 produces. From what you've mentioned in an earlier post, this would yield a punchy sound in the low FR?
 
I'm still learning more about FR graphs, but I'm pretty sure my ideal headphone would have a similar treble peak as yours. I'm not a fan of harsh treble highs; just a bit of sparkle would be great.
 
Btw, I see that you've sold your Denon DJs. They are finally in stock here, and I'm looking to pick them up. Was it any particular reason why you sold yours?

 
Yea the bass presentation in Q40 is pretty much SPOT ON for my taste, the ideal quantity vs quality ratio, anything more and it'll start to impact on mids/highs too much. It's also got the right "shape" that produces the punchy impactful bass across the whole range, it actually sounds deeper than what the graph would suggest, very deep bass (now talking 20~40Hz or so range) comes through with great authority, it gives that "feel"-the-deep bass tickling ear feel especially paired with ZO without overhelming. But yea Q40's bass is very well balanced in deep vs midbass and among serious basshead cans it's not the very punchiest but far from the least punchy, it's a lot more closer to the punchiest bass available again the subb vs midbass presence is just spot on, balanced, I can't say it's either midbass or subbass focused, the whole range comes through as the way the producer intended it to be.
 
Q40 is the first headphone which I don't have to EQ at all, all the other headphones I've bought/tried I've managed to improve by EQing, Q40 sounds best with EQ disabled as long as I use WASAPI in foobar2000, turning soundcard EQ on means I have to run with DirectSound output which leads to slightly worse sound quality so therefore it's always ideal for me if I could find headphones with exactly that response I personally like and Q40 is VERY close to the ideal frequency response balance for me. I only feel that in the lower mids (300Hz ~ 1kHz) I'd welcome ever so slightly more forward mids, the way it currently is balanced it actually sounds quite neutral there but I personally would optimally even prefer very slight colorisation, say 2~3dB boosted lower-midrange over the upper-mid and highsrange as it gives that fullbodied midrange and warmth I like. Apart from FR response the soundstage could obviously be noticably improved still for my liking, soundstage size (especially width) is probably it's biggest "weakness" it's about average closed headphone performance but depth and separation is relatively good for a headphone with such a big bass response.
 
Yea I returned the Denon DN-HP700 but BELIEVE ME these headphones are great sound pair of headphones, the hype about it sounding very close to its bigger brothers is justified, it's simply that good. However since I know my ideal frequency response that's where it fell shortly, I very much enjoyed the very good sounding midrange (I concider that its key strength, it's more forward there than the Denon Dxxxx line) but the highs were just ever so tiny bit too sparkly (I could probably get used to it with time) and the bass extension was lacking (midbass was quite satisfying though). The soundstage was EXCELLENT! I kind of miss its soundstage, especially for gaming, it had a noticable lead there over Q40. But yea since HP700 required slight EQing or possibly using 2x ZO's to get the subbass response I prefer I just got better result in the end with Q40 to my taste as this headphone I didn't need to use any EQing for and Q40 + no EQing + WASAPI vs HP700 with 2x ZO + slight EQing, the end result was that Q40 sounded slightly better even if just comparing stock vs stock sound quality disregarding my own personal ideal frequency response balance, the HP700 were objectively viewed the better sounding one. Exactly how good do the HP700 sound, well to my "subjective opinion" it was worth aprox 250~$300 worth of sound even if it sells for like 100~$150, rarely you find headphones at $100 or past that mark to sound that much past its price point, you may find headphones that could cost say 100 and sound subjectively evaluated like 150~$200 worth of sound but getting like 3x cost worth of sound quality is performance is very unusual when passing $100 mark, HP700 IMO manages to do that. HP700 will make you wonder why the extremely popular Pioneer HDJ-2000 used by lots of famous DJs costs what it does, this headphone will easily compete with that.

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

 
Yea the bass presentation in Q40 is pretty much SPOT ON for my taste, the ideal quantity vs quality ratio, anything more and it'll start to impact on mids/highs too much. It's also got the right "shape" that produces the punchy impactful bass across the whole range, it actually sounds deeper than what the graph would suggest, very deep bass (now talking 20~40Hz or so range) comes through with great authority, it gives that "feel"-the-deep bass tickling ear feel especially paired with ZO without overhelming. But yea Q40's bass is very well balanced in deep vs midbass and among serious basshead cans it's not the very punchiest but far from the least punchy, it's a lot more closer to the punchiest bass available again the subb vs midbass presence is just spot on, balanced, I can't say it's either midbass or subbass focused, the whole range comes through as the way the producer intended it to be.
 
Q40 is the first headphone which I don't have to EQ at all, all the other headphones I've bought/tried I've managed to improve by EQing, Q40 sounds best with EQ disabled as long as I use WASAPI in foobar2000, turning soundcard EQ on means I have to run with DirectSound output which leads to slightly worse sound quality so therefore it's always ideal for me if I could find headphones with exactly that response I personally like and Q40 is VERY close to the ideal frequency response balance for me. I only feel that in the lower mids (300Hz ~ 1kHz) I'd welcome ever so slightly more forward mids, the way it currently is balanced it actually sounds quite neutral there but I personally would optimally even prefer very slight colorisation, say 2~3dB boosted lower-midrange over the upper-mid and highsrange as it gives that fullbodied midrange and warmth I like. Apart from FR response the soundstage could obviously be noticably improved still for my liking, soundstage size (especially width) is probably it's biggest "weakness" it's about average closed headphone performance but depth and separation is relatively good for a headphone with such a big bass response.

 
Again, I might have to give the Q40 a shot one of these days. I love the punchy bass afforded by my Ultrasone PRO 900s, and if reviews and FR graphs are anything to go by, the Q40 seems like a similar can in a more affordable package.
 
The mids on the PRO 900 aren't overly forward, but the treble sparkle is amazing. The combination of a strong bass presentation coupled with some nice highs makes for a fun, engaging sound for EDM. The Q40 sounds like something I might really enjoy.
 
On a sidenote, is getting the ZO2.1 a good option? You've mentioned that they have a higher gain level than the ZO2.3. Are you pairing the 2.1 with the Q40?
 
 

 
Yea I returned the Denon DN-HP700 but BELIEVE ME these headphones are great sound pair of headphones, the hype about it sounding very close to its bigger brothers is justified, it's simply that good. However since I know my ideal frequency response that's where it fell shortly, I very much enjoyed the very good sounding midrange (I concider that its key strength, it's more forward there than the Denon Dxxxx line) but the highs were just ever so tiny bit too sparkly (I could probably get used to it with time) and the bass extension was lacking (midbass was quite satisfying though). The soundstage was EXCELLENT! I kind of miss its soundstage, especially for gaming, it had a noticable lead there over Q40. But yea since HP700 required slight EQing or possibly using 2x ZO's to get the subbass response I prefer I just got better result in the end with Q40 to my taste as this headphone I didn't need to use any EQing for and Q40 + no EQing + WASAPI vs HP700 with 2x ZO + slight EQing, the end result was that Q40 sounded slightly better even if just comparing stock vs stock sound quality disregarding my own personal ideal frequency response balance, the HP700 were objectively viewed the better sounding one. Exactly how good do the HP700 sound, well to my "subjective opinion" it was worth aprox 250~$300 worth of sound even if it sells for like 100~$150, rarely you find headphones at $100 or past that mark to sound that much past its price point, you may find headphones that could cost say 100 and sound subjectively evaluated like 150~$200 worth of sound but getting like 3x cost worth of sound quality is performance is very unusual when passing $100 mark, HP700 IMO manages to do that. HP700 will make you wonder why the extremely popular Pioneer HDJ-2000 used by lots of famous DJs costs what it does, this headphone will easily compete with that.
 

 
I've just got the HP700, and I'm looking forward to having a great time with it. Unfortunately, I only have a ZO2.3 with me, but it sounds like a combination of HP700 + ZO2.1 + ZO2.3 sounds like great times.
 
You're right, I've A/B the HDJ2000 with the HP700 several times now, and I've always thought that the Pioneers are way overpriced. The Denons are easily comparable with the HDJ2000 in clarity and bass presentation.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

 
Again, I might have to give the Q40 a shot one of these days. I love the punchy bass afforded by my Ultrasone PRO 900s, and if reviews and FR graphs are anything to go by, the Q40 seems like a similar can in a more affordable package.
 
The mids on the PRO 900 aren't overly forward, but the treble sparkle is amazing. The combination of a strong bass presentation coupled with some nice highs makes for a fun, engaging sound for EDM. The Q40 sounds like something I might really enjoy.
 
On a sidenote, is getting the ZO2.1 a good option? You've mentioned that they have a higher gain level than the ZO2.3. Are you pairing the 2.1 with the Q40?

 
Yea Q40 packs a very similar kind of bass to PRO900, punchy, textured, impactful and good extension, it needs slight amping though and it's particular picky to amp used in my opinion. ZO2.1 are like PERFECT fit for these headphones, it's crazy how good the synergy is... ZO2.3 is noticably worse fit. With ZO2.1 I'm quite blown away personally. I only did a minor mod to the stock pads, made them deeper by stuffing some paddening underneath them so the ears wouldn't touch the foam ring and it also improved soundstage & separation a noticable amount and tamed down the 8kHz spike ever so slightly (which was welcomed to me). The Q40 vs PRO900 has more forward mids and less sparkle so it's quite balanced in the mids and highs where PRO900 are very V-shaped. Oh and I also replaced the stock cord with Monoprice 8323 DJ headphone's cord and it improved the clarity a little bit, the stock cable is of unusually bad quality IMO, (more smeared sounding).
 
I'm a big fan of Hardstyle personally and Q40 + ZO2.1 is simply stunning, the bass response is just beautiful and you can tell this is exactly how the producer wanted it to sound like, it's very balanced in midbass vs subbass with very nice texture which is more important for this genre than for any other, very accurate and the mids and highs come through exactly as they should (again only if used with ZO2.1, with ZO2.3 it's a little more laid-back sounding than I'd optimally want and it's noticably more boring sounding). With ZO2.1 it's extremely engaging to listen to with nothing missing, strong punchy bass with accurate and rather forward sounding mids and neutral highs. It's impossible to sit still with Q40 + ZO2.1 when listening to hardstyle, it makes you wanna dance.

 

[eskimoo]

To rattle your skull natively (without electronic battery-powered vibrator on Beats), look nowhere but PRO 700 MK2. 53mm driver . massive bass . attenuated mid & highs for disco-genres.

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

 
Yea Q40 packs a very similar kind of bass to PRO900, punchy, textured, impactful and good extension, it needs slight amping though and it's particular picky to amp used in my opinion. ZO2.1 are like PERFECT fit for these headphones, it's crazy how good the synergy is... ZO2.3 is noticably worse fit. With ZO2.1 I'm quite blown away personally. I only did a minor mod to the stock pads, made them deeper by stuffing some paddening underneath them so the ears wouldn't touch the foam ring and it also improved soundstage & separation a noticable amount and tamed down the 8kHz spike ever so slightly (which was welcomed to me). The Q40 vs PRO900 has more forward mids and less sparkle so it's quite balanced in the mids and highs where PRO900 are very V-shaped. Oh and I also replaced the stock cord with Monoprice 8323 DJ headphone's cord and it improved the clarity a little bit, the stock cable is of unusually bad quality IMO, (more smeared sounding).
 
I'm a big fan of Hardstyle personally and Q40 + ZO2.1 is simply stunning, the bass response is just beautiful and you can tell this is exactly how the producer wanted it to sound like, it's very balanced in midbass vs subbass with very nice texture which is more important for this genre than for any other, very accurate and the mids and highs come through exactly as they should (again only if used with ZO2.1, with ZO2.3 it's a little more laid-back sounding than I'd optimally want and it's noticably more boring sounding). With ZO2.1 it's extremely engaging to listen to with nothing missing, strong punchy bass with accurate and rather forward sounding mids and neutral highs. It's impossible to sit still with Q40 + ZO2.1 when listening to hardstyle, it makes you wanna dance.

 
It's good that the Q40 has great synergy with the ZO2.1. It really seems like the elements must fit well in the chain, or the sound will fare rather badly. Case in point - the PRO 900 has quite bad synergy with the ZO2.3. The sound becomes noticeably muddier and the sharp impact is all but lost.
 
I think I've got to try to get my hands on a ZO2.1, but it's very difficult to find them. I like hardstyle as well (and other hard dance genres), and it's always a bliss to get that punchy impact with good extension on a pair of cans. Like you said, you really can't keep still when everything sounds that good.

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

To rattle your skull natively (without electronic battery-powered vibrator on Beats), look nowhere but PRO 700 MK2. 53mm driver . massive bass . attenuated mid & highs for disco-genres.

 
Oh yes, they are a fantastic basshead can indeed. The mids are quite recessed on them, though. Nevertheless, since I'm an EDM fan, the PRO700MK2 fits the bill to a T for what it does.
 
Try pairing it with a bass boost amp like the ZO2.3 for even better results. 

 

[eskimoo]

Quote:

 
Oh yes, they are a fantastic basshead can indeed. The mids are quite recessed on them, though. Nevertheless, since I'm an EDM fan, the PRO700MK2 fits the bill to a T for what it does.
 
Try pairing it with a bass boost amp like the ZO2.3 for even better results. 

 
 
much much better than Beats 

 

[xilw3r]

hey guys, im looking for something with great bass punch as well as sub bass, but that also has some sparkle. mids can be slightly recessed, since im quite sensitive to them anyway, but not too recessed (to the point where you cant hear vocals well enough.. you know)
 
im reading rpgwizard really praising Q40's. and i like the detachable cable and their sensitivity (need easy to drive cans). does Q40 compare to ultrasone hifi 580 ? or any other suggestions i might get ^^ ? except the xb500... theyre freakin huge, and a little too muddy and sparkless as many say
 
PS i listen to electronic/house/dub/hip hop/ but also some rock and stuff... oh and the ability to change to velour pads is great, since my ears heat up quite fast with pleather

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

I wouldn't call Q40 easy to drive, among all easy to drive headphones (well it includes 24 - 80 ohms), only DT770 Pro/80 ohm are slightly harder to drive, it's at the point where most portable devices may struggle, volume wise you should still get sufficient volume but the sound quality may not be quite optimal, also from my Realtek onboard sound chip it has more than enough volume also unamped and provides satisfactory volume for me at 42% but they improve quite a lot by amping them sound quality wise though. Detachable cable is always nice but it's also hard to find replacements as it needs to be either screw-on or very-very slim plugs (similar to those slim IEM cable plugs). 
 
I haven't heard HFI-580 but from frequency response graphs I can see the HFI-580 are a bit more forward and therefore more aggressive in the upper-mids - lower-highs range which makes these a bit more V-shaped while Q40 I find evenly balanced in the mids and highs, rather neutral sounding in mids and highs with a very noticable bass boost but that's of very good quality for the price & quantity concidered. There's a slight spike around 8kHz area which gives it a bit sparkle but I did a simple mod and stuffed the stock pads with extra paddening (kitchen papertowel) underneath the pads which covered some holes underneath the pads (those holes usually lead to more forward highs) and made the pads a little deeper and also provides better fit and helped with soundstage a little bit as well as tamed down the 8kHz spike very slightly (suitably to my ears).
 
I haven't had any probs with the stock pleather pads, some make me easily sweat in say 1 hour but these I can use for hours and hours without sweating. But yea for example Beyerdynamic DT770 velour pads can be fitted on these and gives you extra depth, however it may also result in slightly more recessed midrange as the pads becomes quite a bit deeper.

 

[xilw3r]

thanks for the reply!
 
yea, after i made that last post i did a bit of research on the q40's. The biggest gripe so far is the awful cable. and i cant find them for less than 100 euros, which is also a bit more than over my budget. oh so sad. and now i read that ultrasone hifi 580 is even 130 euro ?? dammit. it seems that i wont be getting any headphones at all so far :|

 

[sky777]

With the heavy bass headphone you buy you should also get a portable amp like the digizoid zo2 or fiio e11. I have the fiio e11 and it affects the bass quite a lot. Especially if you pump up the volume on both the source and the amp. I use the fiio e11 on my mdr zx500 and the zx series is known to be bass recessed. But with the fiio e11 the zx500 starts to rattle from the bass. So get a amp to further bring out the bass. Heard the digizoid zo2 is a better choice if you want multiple bass coloring.