[RPGWiZaRD]

From my experience where bass starts to lose texture versus quantity usually happens at about 10dB boost of bass. I've yet to hear a very textured 10dB+ bass boost. Of course it can still be boomy one-note bass with less than 10dB boost but quantity contribute greatly to less textured bass response at some point. But of course it'll also depend on the construction of the cups as well as the drivers themselves how great quality bass it outputs and a higher quality construction (aluminum instead of plastic cups and optimal shaping of the cups to take into account resonances and things like that) but yea as a guideline I think 8~9dB or so is worth notifying. 
 
Well OK, with digiZoid ZO you can get relatively textured 10dB+ worth of bass response BUT the headphone itself has to have less than 10dB or so boost in bass on its own. M-Audio Q40 & Ultrasone PRO900 (aprox 8~9dB boost) are good examples of where the bass quantity is there right on the border in terms of quantity to be still able to provide a nice texture to it. It's a guideline I'd keep in mind when checking frequency response graphs, if you want the ideal bass quantity vs texture ratio, look for about 8~9dB or so boost in bass. My personal ratings goes like ~5dB boost = entry level basshead quantities (think ATH-M50), ~10dB = basshead (Beats Studios), ~15dB = extreme basshead (XB500, PRO700MK2, V-Moda LP/LP2)
 
So yea for me the ideal bass quantity in a headphone's frequency response is about 8~9dB boost (at its peak), the rest if I'd want more I add by digiZoid ZO as that leads to better results than the headphone itself having 10dB+ boost.

 

[obobskivich]

everything sounds like a mash, a huge wall of bass, so to speak.

Exactly. And sometimes this makes it "fun" - but there are plenty of headphones that can create that "wall of bass" if the recording has it, that don't create it when they shouldn't.

From my experience where bass starts to lose texture versus quantity usually happens at about 10dB boost of bass. I've yet to hear a very textured 10dB+ bass boost. Of course it can still be boomy one-note bass with less than 10dB boost but quantity contribute greatly to less textured bass response at some point. 

Well OK, with digiZoid ZO you can get relatively textured 10dB+ worth of bass response BUT the headphone itself has to have less than 10dB or so boost in bass on its own. M-Audio Q40 & Ultrasone PRO900 (aprox 8~9dB boost) are good examples of where the bass quantity is there right on the border in terms of quantity to be still able to provide a nice texture to it. It's a guideline I'd keep in mind when checking frequency response graphs, if you want the ideal bass quantity vs texture ratio, look at about 8~9dB or so boost in bass.

I would agree with this. The most textured/smoothest bass response I have heard from cans is also usually the lightest response, and the most impactful response usually gives up something on the bottom. It's a trade-off for sure. And again, as you've said, there are headphones that pull off a balancing act.

Applying EQ gain can be nice but always keep over-excursion/clipping in mind when you do this. Rane estimates that 50% of the amplifier demands are for the signal under 250hz, and "double" perceptual loudness (10 dB) translates into 10x more power. Sure, some headphones can take it, but it's easy to muck it up if you get too insane (you know, +24 dB on a software EQ, + 24 dB on an external hardware EQ, +10 dB on a tone control, etc - the signal looks like Everest by the time it reaches the amplifier).

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

To further expand on the subject, punchy bass is usually giving a sense of control & texture as it's snappier and decays usually faster, punchy bass in frequency response is usually determined by the shape of the bass area (250Hz and below). To achieve punchy bass, look for graphs that have a peak/hillshaped bass response that usually have its peak around 70~120Hz or so and a slight roll-off in subbass area. Giving away a bit of the very low frequencies makes it less power-hungry as deep frequencies require a lot more power and it allows for a more impact to the bass from a snappier and more impactful midbass frequencies (80~150Hz or so). The more narrow "hill" and the higher boost at its peak, usually the "punchier" bass, it's not really that simple (it matters especially for example of the driver vented to provide as much airflow as possible, too much and it looses impact and no venting hinders airflow too) is but if every headphone were constructed similarly it would be a quite accurate view.
 
These are great examples of graphs that you can simply tell by its graph the bass is of the rather punchy/impactful type:
 

 

 

 
 
And also an example of not so impactfull & punchy bass frequency response graph (most IEMs):
 

 

[obobskivich]

To expand on that even more )) - the MDR-SA5000 are a pristine example of "punchy bass."

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

To further expand on the subject, punchy bass is usually giving a sense of control & texture as it's snappier and decays usually faster, punchy bass in frequency response is usually determined by the shape of the bass area (250Hz and below). To achieve punchy bass, look for graphs that have a peak/hillshaped bass response that usually have its peak around 70~120Hz or so and a slight roll-off in subbass area. Giving away a bit of the very low frequencies makes it less power-hungry as deep frequencies require a lot more power and it allows for a more impact to the bass from a snappier and more impactful midbass frequencies (80~150Hz or so). The more narrow "hill" and the higher boost at its peak, usually the "punchier" bass, it's not really that simple (it matters especially for example of the driver vented to provide as much airflow as possible, too much and it looses impact and no venting hinders airflow too) is but if every headphone were constructed similarly it would be a quite accurate view.
 

 
Hey, nice, thanks for the explanation. Let me see if I can find graphs for my cans and co-relate them to what I see and what I hear. I know some people are not too fond of FR graphs, but they do provide a picture of what you can expect.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

If I was allowed to finetune a FR of a headphone driver (and assuming the driver is capable) I'd make it have roughly this shape, the limegreen line (roughly a sketch of my ideal FR response I'd guess):
 

 
Aprox 8~9dB peak bass boost, slightly rolled off at the deeper frequencies, 30Hz or so and lower, as flat 300~1kHz and reasonably forward lower midrange as possible and very slightly rolling off past 1kHz to meet it's lowest point around 3.5kHz where the most common "ringing"/resonance for heaphones occur in the midrange, Q40 which also has it's lowest point in the midrange exactly here is completely free of that coloration which I value highly to me personally. A minor spike at 8~10kHz as most headphones have to give a glimpse of "sparkle" to the highs (cymbals) but not too much and otherwise neutrally balanced highrange. A FR response like this would most certainly give a bit on the warmer side of neutral balance with a punchy impactful bass with reasonably forward and fullbodied sounding mids and quite neutral sounding highs. Well it's quite similar to HE-500 and LCD2 with say LCD2 having like 8~9dB boost in bass and a slight boost across the highrange (around 2~3dB or so)

 

[warrenpchi]

Ahh I see, so I was led astray long ago with a poorly worded explanation.  Many thanks for the clarification guys!  Okay, so that being the case, lemme return to Denz's original question:
 
Quote:

 
What about layering? Too much one note bass is no good for me.

 
The Steez 808 don't exhibit nearly as much one-note bass as Beats.  And so even though I have not heard the XB500s, from how everyone is describing it, I would say that the Steez 808s are not nearly as boomy as either Beats or XB500s. 

 
FYI, I think that part of my confusion came from a definition I read in http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/bbs/stereophile_audio-glossary.html long ago.

 

[greensaw]

Oh my god you guys are so right!!! I just bought the XB500's! Wow that bass just pumps through a flat eq, there is no need to boost them at all! Rock and Dubstep sound amazing on them!! What songs are likely to  vibrate these babies? Just wanted some more of that i guess, other than that, I LOVE These 'phones!! Thank you!! My, they are so Comfy too!

 

[TehJam]

Quote:

Oh my god you guys are so right!!! I just bought the XB500's! Wow that bass just pumps through a flat eq, there is no need to boost them at all! Rock and Dubstep sound amazing on them!! What songs are likely to  vibrate these babies? Just wanted some more of that i guess, other than that, I LOVE These 'phones!! Thank you!! My, they are so Comfy too!

 

 

[reddragon]

Quote:

One-note bass is a "negative" thing - like "Wooly" or "Boomy" - not a positive thing, like "detailed" or "clear."
Basically it means that all bass sounds "one note" or blurs together into one incoherent mess of "boom boom boom" or "doof doof doof" - there's no definition, texture, etc down there. You can't listen to an organ or bass and hear it as an instrument, it's just a wall of loud, deep, noise. Like listening to a jet engine. An example in a song would be like AFX - Windowlicker, the final bass line, it's more or less a wall of distortion. Compare that to something with complex low notes, like Sabbath's Iron Man which has a lot of nice drum kicks and deep guitar/bass notes in it. There's more complexity and texture.
With a "one note bass" can, both of those will just sound like mud on the bottom. With something that's proper from top to bottom, you'll get the wall of distortion effect from AFX, just like you'll get the nice drums from Sabbath.
This is much easier to explain in context of speakers - ever been in a car where someone has "upgraded" the sound system with a ton of subwoofers in the trunk (very cheaply)? And all of the bass is just a big, loud, "boom" whenever the song "hits." That's one-note.

 
 
 
thanks for the explanation and ill definitely check out those songs so i fully understand what you mean. what you said makes sense but ill have to experience it first hand to understand, i guess ill use the xb500 that i should be receiving today and a dt990 to see what the one note bass really means. thanks a lot for the explanation.

 

[Hellbishop]

Quote:

 
It's when a single bass note (or sometimes a narrow range of bass notes) sound too pronounced or exagerrated because the drivers are too fast (as tight bass cans often tend to be) and don't allow bass notes to blend into (or layer upon) one another.
 
God if I'm wrong someone please tell me.  I'd rather be wrong and know it (than be wrong and think I'm right).

 
Yes thats my impression of single bass note which the XB500 seem to do. That one note bass just pops out of nowhere and doesnt blend in with everything else giving me the impression alot of times its someone knocking on my door or something have just fallen on my floor. With equalization i enjoy things alot more and am still happy with my XB500 though i really dont use them anymore since discovering the balanced likes of the Koss Pro DJ100, Koss Pro 4AAT and KRK KNS 8400 since my tastes lean to treble or a full balanced sound without extreme bass.

 

[reddragon]

Quote:

 
Yes thats my impression of single bass note which the XB500 seem to do. That one note bass just pops out of nowhere and doesnt blend in with everything else giving me the impression alot of times its someone knocking on my door or something have just fallen on my floor. With equalization i enjoy things alot more and am still happy with my XB500 though i really dont use them anymore since discovering the balanced likes of the Koss Pro DJ100, Koss Pro 4AAT and KRK KNS 8400 since my tastes lean to treble or a full balanced sound without extreme bass.

 
i have the koss tbse1, the tony bennett edition headphone, its said to sound exactly like the pro dj100 except mine has detachable cable. my impression of the sound signature is more like balanced with a slight boost on the mid, the bass is more present on some tracks, on other tracks the mid seems to dominate and the bass is just there, the treble is not boosted neither. personally my impression of its sound signature is a slight n curve, the mid being slightly forward, i wont say the bass or treble is recessed though, its just that the mid is a little more prominant.

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

If I was allowed to finetune a FR of a headphone driver (and assuming the driver is capable) I'd make it have roughly this shape, the limegreen line (roughly a sketch of my ideal FR response I'd guess):
 

 
Aprox 8~9dB peak bass boost, slightly rolled off at the deeper frequencies, 30Hz or so and lower, as flat 300~1kHz and reasonably forward lower midrange as possible and very slightly rolling off past 1kHz to meet it's lowest point around 3.5kHz where the most common "ringing"/resonance for heaphones occur in the midrange, Q40 which also has it's lowest point in the midrange exactly here is completely free of that coloration which I value highly to me personally. A minor spike at 8~10kHz as most headphones have to give a glimpse of "sparkle" to the highs (cymbals) but not too much and otherwise neutrally balanced highrange. A FR response like this would most certainly give a bit on the warmer side of neutral balance with a punchy impactful bass with reasonably forward and fullbodied sounding mids and quite neutral sounding highs. Well it's quite similar to HE-500 and LCD2 with say LCD2 having like 8~9dB boost in bass and a slight boost across the highrange (around 2~3dB or so)

 
It seems like your ideal bass presentation is very similar to what the Q40 produces. From what you've mentioned in an earlier post, this would yield a punchy sound in the low FR?
 
I'm still learning more about FR graphs, but I'm pretty sure my ideal headphone would have a similar treble peak as yours. I'm not a fan of harsh treble highs; just a bit of sparkle would be great.
 
Btw, I see that you've sold your Denon DJs. They are finally in stock here, and I'm looking to pick them up. Was it any particular reason why you sold yours?

 

[obobskivich]

It seems like your ideal bass presentation is very similar to what the Q40 produces. From what you've mentioned in an earlier post, this would yield a punchy sound in the low FR?

I'm still learning more about FR graphs, but I'm pretty sure my ideal headphone would have a similar treble peak as yours. I'm not a fan of harsh treble highs; just a bit of sparkle would be great.

Btw, I see that you've sold your Denon DJs. They are finally in stock here, and I'm looking to pick them up. Was it any particular reason why you sold yours?

Harsh treble is not the same as boosted treble. You can have bright cans without them being harsh. An example is the Sony MDR-SA5000.

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

Harsh treble is not the same as boosted treble. You can have bright cans without them being harsh. An example is the Sony MDR-SA5000.

 
So what's the fine line between boosted treble levels and harsh treble? How does one see this in an FR graph?