[Pharmaboy]

I would really like to see something in the bifrost/asgard form factor and I'm willing to wait, well, for a bit anyway. I'm guessing how well this sells will be one determining factor on whether Schiit expands the range of tone control units; any sense how much attention the Loki garnered at CanJam?

I was at CanJam on Saturday...spent 20+ minutes at the Schiit booth. I wasn't exactly counting people, but what I saw was:

• What appeared to be multiple 3X stacks (R2R DAC on bottom; Loki in the middle; HP amp on top). Maybe 3 to 4 such listening stations.
• The whole time I sat there, people were paying attention to the Loki, asking questions of the company personnel, listening to them, etc.
• My experience (sitting down to hear the AFO, but getting interested in the Loki) seems to be happening w/other people--either sitting at these stations; or walking up to wait for a station; etc.
• The fact that you could so easily switch the unit out of the system, then back in, seemed of particular interest (to me & others I saw there).

So my very unscientific conclusion is that people know about the Loki & went there to see/hear it; and others who didn't go there to see/hear, ended up doing so anyway.

And re this from @Left Channel: "It's not possible to use it for your headphones, which is probably your intent (because head-fi), but it could still sit between the amp's pre-outs and your speakers."

Actually, the Loki could readily be used with headphones. First would be the DAC; RCA outputs of DAC into RCA inputs of Loki; RCA outputs of Loki into RCA inputs of headphone amp.

Of course, that wouldn't be possible if one had a combo DAC/amp; nor would it work if one took digital signal directly from the computer's soundcard.

My desktop system is insanely complex, starting w/a DAC that has 2 live RCA output pairs, each going to a separate HP amp/preamp. I would use a Loki downstream of whichever HP amp/preamp controls the speakers (too complicated to explain here, plus I'd put you all to sleep trying to do so...)

 

[Left Channel]

And re this from @Left Channel: "It's not possible to use it for your headphones, which is probably your intent (because head-fi), but it could still sit between the amp's pre-outs and your speakers."

Actually, the Loki could readily be used with headphones. First would be the DAC; RCA outputs of DAC into RCA inputs of Loki; RCA outputs of Loki into RCA inputs of headphone amp.

Of course, that wouldn't be possible if one had a combo DAC/amp; nor would it work if one took digital signal directly from the computer's soundcard.

If you'll read through his posts again, you'll find he was asking if he can use a combo DAC/amp.

 

[Pharmaboy]

good catch...I'm rushed & hadn't read original post.

 

[Wallboy]

Thanks for the replies. I currently have just a Modi 1 and Vali 1 which the Loki would easily sit between, but I plan on upgrading those soon. It just rules out any of the DAC/AMP combos I suppose. For example, if someone had the Jotunheim with the DAC built-in, and they wanted the Loki, they are screwed from what I've gathered.

 

[omniweltall]

Most dac/amp combos that i know have either a better dac or amp. Jot's dac is not so good, for example. So, not really screwed in a big way.

 

[Wallboy]

Well there is no difference in perceived sound between a $150 and $2000 DAC. Any difference you would be hearing is from one of the DACs "coloring" the sound in some way. Pay more for extra features such as additional inputs, etc. Not for "better" sound.

You sit 100 headfi'ers down and do a Modi vs Yggy blind test and you'd have a complete mixed result... Even better, tell them which one they are listening to and you'd end up with 90% saying they thought the Yggy was better. And then break out the news that you lied and they were actually hearing the opposite unit that you told them they were listening to. Congrats Modi, you convinced 90% that you are the better unit. Mmm placebo at work...

GOD I would love that test to happen, so we could put this expensive DAC nonsense to bed.

But to get back on topic. Thanks for the clarification that a DAC/AMP combo won't work with this unit. I'll be looking into an individual DAC (I DO need multiple inputs. One from my PC via USB and a digital coax or toslink coming from my consoles) and a separate amp.

 

[omniweltall]

Well there is no difference in perceived sound between a $150 and $2000 DAC. Any difference you would be hearing is from one of the DACs "coloring" the sound in some way. Pay more for extra features such as additional inputs, etc. Not for "better" sound.

You sit 100 headfi'ers down and do a Modi vs Yggy blind test and you'd have a complete mixed result... Even better, tell them which one they are listening to and you'd end up with 90% saying they thought the Yggy was better. And then break out the news that you lied and they were actually hearing the opposite unit that you told them they were listening to. Congrats Modi, you convinced 90% that you are the better unit. Mmm placebo at work...

GOD I would love that test to happen, so we could put this expensive DAC nonsense to bed.

But to get back on topic. Thanks for the clarification that a DAC/AMP combo won't work with this unit. I'll be looking into an individual DAC (I DO need multiple inputs. One from my PC via USB and a digital coax or toslink coming from my consoles) and a separate amp.

I respectfully disagree. Though there is some truth in your opinion, mate.

The reason why those 90% people fail, is because those people, like most people, don't have trained ears. Ears are probably our least trained part of our body. Most people simply can't hear the difference. They never do listening test their whole life. Yet they want to keep "upgrading" their gears. In the end, they buy into hypes easily, since they can't rely on their ears when buying gears. For most people, I think Mimby would be much more than sufficient and they only cost USD250. So, there is really no need to follow those hypes and spend ridiculous money on DACs. Many of those expensive DACs also perform way below their tag price. And that is exactly why I advised to take it easy with DAC (or amps even).

One's gears should reflect one's audio level. One can upgrade when their level upgrades too. I'm still using mid-tier gears myself. It is no use for me to buy a Yggy if my ears can't tell the difference. BUT...........those differences are there for the trained ears (mine not included). For the life of me, I can't tell the difference between Gumby and Yggy...maybe next year. But for those who can, they will be able to appreciate the Yggy.

To me, multiple inputs and such are just auxiliary stuffs when it comes to buying DACs. I don't even care about balanced or SE. Good sound is good sound.

Cheers and enjoy your music, mate.

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Well there is no difference in perceived sound between a $150 and $2000 DAC. Any difference you would be hearing is from one of the DACs "coloring" the sound in some way. Pay more for extra features such as additional inputs, etc. Not for "better" sound...[snip]...

Interesting point, Wallboy. I’m trying to educate myself: would you consider “DAC colouring” similar to the “bass boost” and other mysterious effect buttons I see on mainstream tuners and sound cards? Whenever I monkey around with my PC audio settings, I see such “headphone optimization” woo-woo settings.

You sit 100 headfi'ers down and do a Modi vs Yggy blind test and you'd have a complete mixed result... Even better, tell them which one they are listening to and you'd end up with 90% saying they thought the Yggy was better. And then break out the news that you lied and they were actually hearing the opposite unit that you told them they were listening to. Congrats Modi, you convinced 90% that you are the better unit. Mmm placebo at work...[snip]... GOD I would love that test to happen, so we could put this expensive DAC nonsense to bed...[snip]...

I have to admit, it’d take a head-fi user a lot of gonads to put my Modi Multibit in a A/B test against one of the beefier Schiit DAC units (and then post her/his results). I don’t think I could tell the difference.

...still seriously considering picking up a Loki. It’s that or try to grab a $350-650 (CDN) Sennheiser HD6– headphone.

Interesting side-topic. Thanks, eh.

 

[ScubaMan2017]

...[snip]...The reason why those 90% people fail, is because those people, like most people, don't have trained ears. Ears are probably our least trained part of our body. Most people simply can't hear the difference. They never do listening test their whole life. Yet they want to keep "upgrading" their gears. In the end, they buy into hypes easily, since they can't rely on their ears when buying gears. For most people, I think Mimby would be much more than sufficient and they only cost USD250. So, there is really no need to follow those hypes and spend ridiculous money on DACs. Many of those expensive DACs also perform way below their tag price. And that is exactly why I advised to take it easy with DAC (or amps even)....[snip]...

A trained ear. I’ve run across that phenomena since I’ve dipped my claw into the audiophile pool. My audio technician buddy undoubtably has it. Me? I damaged my right eardrum in a diving mishap on the Saint Laurence (goddamn tinitus). Hmm... I wonder if there’s a way to use software-based EQ or even the Loki to counteract the effect? Just musing & BS-ing...

 

[bzzzt]

Well there is no difference in perceived sound between a $150 and $2000 DAC. Any difference you would be hearing is from one of the DACs "coloring" the sound in some way. Pay more for extra features such as additional inputs, etc. Not for "better" sound.

You sit 100 headfi'ers down and do a Modi vs Yggy blind test and you'd have a complete mixed result... Even better, tell them which one they are listening to and you'd end up with 90% saying they thought the Yggy was better. And then break out the news that you lied and they were actually hearing the opposite unit that you told them they were listening to. Congrats Modi, you convinced 90% that you are the better unit. Mmm placebo at work...

GOD I would love that test to happen, so we could put this expensive DAC nonsense to bed.

While I don't doubt that many DACs are indistinguishable to many people, this is certainly not true for all people or all DACs.

For example, I very easily hear a big difference between my Modi 2 Uber and my Gungnir MB. Since I was suspicious if it might be bias, my friend helped me do a blind A/B test to confirm. Out of 15 samples I was able to name each DAC correctly 14 times.

I'm not going to argue that this was an infallible test or that this statistic would hold for all listeners. What I will say is that for me, the Gumby was clearly an improvement. Most of the time the audible cues that led me to pick the Gumby or Modi were a slight harshness I hear with the Modi. It is immediately obvious to me, its not a subtle thing.

While in terms of recommendation I often tell people not to worry much about DAC upgrades, I don't think it is fair to say that no DACs sound any different.

 

[omniweltall]

A trained ear. I’ve run across that phenomena since I’ve dipped my claw into the audiophile pool. My audio technician buddy undoubtably has it. Me? I damaged my right eardrum in a diving mishap on the Saint Laurence (goddamn tinitus). Hmm... I wonder if there’s a way to use software-based EQ or even the Loki to counteract the effect? Just musing & BS-ing...

Really sorry about your ear. As far as I know, I don't think EQ can help. But I'm not an expert.

 

[timb5881]

A trained ear. I’ve run across that phenomena since I’ve dipped my claw into the audiophile pool. My audio technician buddy undoubtably has it. Me? I damaged my right eardrum in a diving mishap on the Saint Laurence (goddamn tinitus). Hmm... I wonder if there’s a way to use software-based EQ or even the Loki to counteract the effect? Just musing & BS-ing...

Check this out! If your tinnitus is not a physical damage damage this research may help.

http://www.uofmhealth.org/news/arch...s-discovery-opens-door-possible-new-treatment

 

[ScubaMan2017]

Check this out! If your tinnitus is not a physical damage damage this research may help.

http://www.uofmhealth.org/news/arch...s-discovery-opens-door-possible-new-treatment

Thanks for the links, eh. I got off comparatively light with my injury. Diving a seaway where I’m whipped around like a 300lb (with gear) ragdoll is awesome.
#######
I’m waffling between picking up a Loki or saving my CDN pesos for an (almost mythical) HD600/650/6xx. It’s a fun problem to agonize over!

 

[Soundguyrob]

Thanks for the links, eh. I got off comparatively light with my injury. Diving a seaway where I’m whipped around like a 300lb (with gear) ragdoll is awesome.
#######
I’m waffling between picking up a Loki or saving my CDN pesos for an (almost mythical) HD600/650/6xx. It’s a fun problem to agonize over!

I'm using a Loki mini with my HD650 (into a Valhalla 2) and it sounds amazing. So, I say get both! LOL
The great thing about the Loki is it has the ability to change headphones from "like" to "love". Well worth the admission price. (and I'm a Canuck, too. So I sympathize with the exchange/shipping/brokerage pain).

 

[renault4]

I was at CanJam on Saturday...spent 20+ minutes at the Schiit booth. I wasn't exactly counting people, but what I saw was:

• What appeared to be multiple 3X stacks (R2R DAC on bottom; Loki in the middle; HP amp on top). Maybe 3 to 4 such listening stations.
• The whole time I sat there, people were paying attention to the Loki, asking questions of the company personnel, listening to them, etc.
• My experience (sitting down to hear the AFO, but getting interested in the Loki) seems to be happening w/other people--either sitting at these stations; or walking up to wait for a station; etc.
• The fact that you could so easily switch the unit out of the system, then back in, seemed of particular interest (to me & others I saw there).

So my very unscientific conclusion is that people know about the Loki & went there to see/hear it; and others who didn't go there to see/hear, ended up doing so anyway.

And re this from @Left Channel: "It's not possible to use it for your headphones, which is probably your intent (because head-fi), but it could still sit between the amp's pre-outs and your speakers."

Actually, the Loki could readily be used with headphones. First would be the DAC; RCA outputs of DAC into RCA inputs of Loki; RCA outputs of Loki into RCA inputs of headphone amp.

Of course, that wouldn't be possible if one had a combo DAC/amp; nor would it work if one took digital signal directly from the computer's soundcard.

My desktop system is insanely complex, starting w/a DAC that has 2 live RCA output pairs, each going to a separate HP amp/preamp. I would use a Loki downstream of whichever HP amp/preamp controls the speakers (too complicated to explain here, plus I'd put you all to sleep trying to do so...)

So coming back to the topic of the Loki

In watching the company over the last few years, it is not unreasonable to predict that were Schiit to choose to add another tone control unit in a larger form factor, they would take advantage of the increased real estate to add more features or upgrade the quality of the electronics, or both, so that they could target a different price point, say around the $300 mark. However what I think i'd really like would be the exact same electronics just in the larger form factor, realizing they's have to redesign the board to accommodate the increased spacing from the use of larger dials.

Call me fussy, but I've been able to establish my kit on a small side table next to an armchair in my living room, I've bundled all the power or audio cables in a wire loom, so the whole thing looks tidy and aesthetically unobtrusive; stacking a mini Loki on top of this or on the side would look far more obtrusive in my mind than a third unit, which would look more like it belongs in the stack.

Oh well, we'll have to wait and see!