LCD-2 and treble.

[MacedonianHero]

Agreed, Frank.  Seems to me that there are a number of people for whom their "reference" sound is another pair of cans.  For those folks, all the bets are off.  There's no telling what will sound "best" to you.  On the other hand, for those folks who's reference is real life, most hear the LCD-2 to be tonally and timbrally accurate.
 
Regarding the bass "slam" of the Grado...  If you drive the LCD-2 with a proper enough amplifier, the Grados simply cannot keep up.  The LCD-2's impact will take your breath away.
 

WRT the Grado bass slam, there simply is no contest here. Try any Grado headphone with a frequency sweep from 20 Hz to 80 Hz....you will struggle to hear any sound. Then try it with the LCD-2s and be prepared to possible lose some tooth filings as the LFE could rattle them loose.

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

Agreed, Frank.  Seems to me that there are a number of people for whom their "reference" sound is another pair of cans.  For those folks, all the bets are off.  There's no telling what will sound "best" to you.  On the other hand, for those folks who's reference is real life, most hear the LCD-2 to be tonally and timbrally accurate.
 

 
My reference for detail are my speakers setup as well as my studio monitors. The HE-6 and particularly the SR-007 give me similar details to my reference, while the LCD-2 are far from it. The lack of detail reduces my enjoyment of the music because it dulls the sound. Maybe that's the way it is in some "real life" situations, but that's not what the microphones captured.
 
I remember hearing a Shostakovich symphony sitting in one of the balconies at the Royal Albert Hall, and the sound was pretty bad. I wouldn't want this "real life" to be presented by my headphones unless the microphones were placed in that balcony, which is not how any recording engineer would place them.
 
 
 

 

[rhythmdevils]

The LCD-2 is extremely detailed, that's not really subjective.  There's nothing you will hear with other headphones that you can't hear on the LCD-2.  It's just that added treble makes those details louder in other headphones. 
 
What is subjective is how much treble you want. 
 
I think that needs to be a sticky at the top of every LCD-2 thread...

 

[MacedonianHero]

The LCD-2 is extremely detailed, that's not really subjective.  There's nothing you will hear with other headphones that you can't hear on the LCD-2.  It's just that added treble makes those details louder in other headphones. 
 
What is subjective is how much treble you want. 
 
I think that needs to be a sticky at the top of every LCD-2 thread...

As usual, brilliantly stated.

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

 
My reference for detail are my speakers setup as well as my studio monitors. The HE-6 and particularly the SR-007 give me similar details to my reference, while the LCD-2 are far from it. The lack of detail reduces my enjoyment of the music because it dulls the sound. Maybe that's the way it is in some "real life" situations, but that's not what the microphones captured.
 
I remember hearing a Shostakovich symphony sitting in one of the balconies at the Royal Albert Hall, and the sound was pretty bad. I wouldn't want this "real life" to be presented by my headphones unless the microphones were placed in that balcony, which is not how any recording engineer would place them.
 
 
 

From what I remember, I think the treble of the LCD2 was rolled off. My W11R (which I consider neutral) had more treble than the LCD2 and the W11R has "recessed" treble compared to most headphones I heard in the same meet. ABing the W11R with the LCD2, the treble was noticably weaker on the LCD2. I suspect there is an extreme treble roll off at the 17-21+K frequencies or an even wider range. Could someone verify?
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

My reference for detail are my speakers setup as well as my studio monitors. The HE-6 and particularly the SR-007 give me similar details to my reference, while the LCD-2 are far from it. The lack of detail reduces my enjoyment of the music because it dulls the sound. Maybe that's the way it is in some "real life" situations, but that's not what the microphones captured.
 
I remember hearing a Shostakovich symphony sitting in one of the balconies at the Royal Albert Hall, and the sound was pretty bad. I wouldn't want this "real life" to be presented by my headphones unless the microphones were placed in that balcony, which is not how any recording engineer would place them.

Your reference is not an absolute reference, but rather a relativistic one.  That's ok, but it is what it is, just another relative data point.
Your preferences, whatever they may be, are your preferences.  No right or wrong here, they're simply your subjective preferences.  That's ok, just recognize them for what they are.
 
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

From what I remember, I think the treble of the LCD2 was rolled off. My W11R (which I consider neutral) had more treble than the LCD2 and the W11R has "recessed" treble compared to most headphones I heard in the same meet. ABing the W11R with the LCD2, the treble was noticably weaker on the LCD2. I suspect there is an extreme treble roll off at the 17-21+K frequencies or an even wider range. Could someone verify?
 

Well, I guess that concludes it then, your W11R's are the arbiter of neutrality, regardless of what real un-amplified acoustic instruments sound like.  

No, there is not an extreme treble roll off 17-21k.
 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

Well, I guess that concludes it then, your W11R's are the arbiter of neutrality, regardless of what real un-amplified acoustic instruments sound like.  

No, there is not an extreme treble roll off 17-21k.
 

I use vocals more often as a comparison point for neutrality. Instruments tend to sound real with recessed treble or neutral treble to me usually. They just sound more or less full.
 
And I guess that answers that then. =)
 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

 
And I guess that answers that then. =)
 

Take a look at the measurements on innerfidelity and draw your own conclusions...
 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

Take a look at the measurements on innerfidelity and draw your own conclusions...
 

Thank you for the link. I've been wondering where I could find the measurement. I bookmarked the site.
 
In my world, a 20db recession is an extreme roll off regardless of a bump in the lower treble. The upper treble is certainly rolled off overall and much wider range than a simple roll off.

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

The LCD-2 is extremely detailed, that's not really subjective.  There's nothing you will hear with other headphones that you can't hear on the LCD-2.  It's just that added treble makes those details louder in other headphones. 
 
What is subjective is how much treble you want. 
 
I think that needs to be a sticky at the top of every LCD-2 thread...

I haven't reached a clear conclusion on whether the detail is there and it's just low-volume, or it's not there. I think that question is academic. Increasing the volume to hear the suppressed part of the sound isn't a good solution. In fact, I have noticed that I tend to keep cranking up the volume on the LCD-2 in search of the missing detail, and then I'm overwhelmed by the parts of the sound that weren't suppressed.
 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

Thank you for the link. I've been wondering where I could find the measurement. I bookmarked the site.
 
In my world, a 20db recession is an extreme roll off regardless of a bump in the lower treble. The upper treble is certainly rolled off overall and much wider range than a simple roll off.

Yes - that's what I thought too, and it's consistent with what I hear.
 

 

[Wedge]

Having a higher frequency response to retrieve detail really doesn't make for a good solution, either.  There are such things as bright and analytical speakers, just as their are bright and analytical headphones.  The LCD-2 are more of a musical presentation so it doesn't throw all the detail in your face.  There are also such things as bright amps, and "rolled off" amps.  I heard my friends DIY amp, and he did some bypass caps in it to extend the frequency range performance of the amp, and well it made the LCD-2s crazy bright, tonally started to sound like some of the other flagships, we gave it a listen and agreed that it was probably best to undo the bypass caps.  Too each his own, but perhaps you just need a brighter amp to power your LCD-2s.  

 
Quote:

I haven't reached a clear conclusion on whether the detail is there and it's just low-volume, or it's not there. I think that question is academic. Increasing the volume to hear the suppressed part of the sound isn't a good solution. In fact, I have noticed that I tend to keep cranking up the volume on the LCD-2 in search of the missing detail, and then I'm overwhelmed by the parts of the sound that weren't suppressed.
 

 

 

[jackmccabe]

Roll off between 17-20khz would hardly be noticeable as very little music actually has frequencies this high.

 

[AmanGeorge]

I came to the LCD-2 from the K701 / HD800 / Lambda school of headphones - i.e. tending bright, wearing detail on their sleeves. For me, initially, the LCD-2 sounded dark and a little congested. Over time, I have gotten used to the Audez'e and have a hard time going back to anything else - I'm of the "all the detail is there, it's just not in your face" school of thought - and that includes soundstage and layering information. There's nothing I can't hear in my recordings through my LCD-2... it's spectacular. 
 
So - if you are coming from that similar background (brighter headphones), I can almost guarantee that your initial reaction to the headphones will be muted, but I'd recommend spending some serious time with them and seeing if your ears adjust (and not everybody's will  of course- there are folks haven't enjoyed the LCD-2 sound even after getting to know the headphones well).