Just listened to some Fostex T50RPs today... WOW!

[chrislangley4253]

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Next question: Is this the correct thread to ask about the best amp for these headphones. If so, listening to the likes of Pink Floyd and Dire Straits how about the Matrix Cube or Yulong D100? How about using the DAC in my iBasso D10 into a Matrix M-Stage or Bottlehead Crack? I owned Magnapan and Apogee planar speakers many years ago and I really liked them but they never had any decent bass. The modified Fostex are pretty good in this regard and I really love the sound but I believe they can use more power than my little battery powered D10 can provide.

I would say ODAC and O2, but I'm suuuper biased, because I use those

I will say the M-stage and O2 are very, very similar to my ears

 

[chinook9]

Fraggler: Do you have any idea if the T50RPs would sound as good out of the Bottlehead without the S.E.X kit. I am presently considering the Bottlehead Crack and the Project Sunrise. I would use the DAC in my iBasso D10 with either of these...at least initially. WJE: I hadn't thought of just putting a 3.5 mm connector on the stock cable. Thanks for the offer, but I have the skills and the equipment to do this so I'll probably just go ahead and do it. geetarman49: Thanks for the mention of the sunrise hybrid. I could go for a ready built one sunrise or build a Bottlehead Crack myself. Is the 12au7 a lot better than the stock 6N23P tubes? I read that the matrix M-stage is much better than the cube. Have you had a chance to compare them? I was also considering the O2 but one of the posters indicated that it wouldn't be much, if any, better than my D10. chrislangley4253: Thanks for the note on the M-stage and O2. Based on the reviews, I would have thought that the M-stage was significantly better. Lastly, how does one add blank line in these posts??????

 

[kalbee]

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Lastly, how does one add blank line in these posts??????

the RETURN or ENTER button on the keyboard/keypad
At worse, I don't know, perhaps <br> would work.

 

[FraGGleR]

Fraggler: Do you have any idea if the T50RPs would sound as good out of the Bottlehead without the S.E.X kit. I am presently considering the Bottlehead Crack and the Project Sunrise. I would use the DAC in my iBasso D10 with either of these...at least initially. WJE: I hadn't thought of just putting a 3.5 mm connector on the stock cable. Thanks for the offer, but I have the skills and the equipment to do this so I'll probably just go ahead and do it. geetarman49: Thanks for the mention of the sunrise hybrid. I could go for a ready built one sunrise or build a Bottlehead Crack myself. Is the 12au7 a lot better than the stock 6N23P tubes? I read that the matrix M-stage is much better than the cube. Have you had a chance to compare them? I was also considering the O2 but one of the posters indicated that it wouldn't be much, if any, better than my D10. chrislangley4253: Thanks for the note on the M-stage and O2. Based on the reviews, I would have thought that the M-stage was significantly better. Lastly, how does one add blank line in these posts??????

From what I understand, the Crack does better with high impedance headphones like Sennheisers, whereas orthodynamics do better with amps that can generate a lot of current. The S.E.X. does that (with the impedance kit that also allows for balanced operation, you can do both sets). As good as the Crack sounds with the Sennheisers, they may not cut it for orthodynamics.

 

[Armaegis]

I have the Crack and a D10. The crack is fantastic with Sennheisers, but really doesn't do very well with the orthos, and don't bother trying to run any of the heavier ones.

 

[dustdevil]

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I just checked my most recently acquired three sets of T50RP's, received last week from bhphotovideo. They are the latest production with smooth finished metal hangers and non-textured, translucent white driver dampening material. 

Great! Thank you very much! I'm really looking forward to get one of these when I can afford them.

 

[geetarman49]

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.... geetarman49: Thanks for the mention of the sunrise hybrid. I could go for a ready built one sunrise or build a Bottlehead Crack myself. Is the 12au7 a lot better than the stock 6N23P tubes? I read that the matrix M-stage is much better than the cube. Have you had a chance to compare them? I was also considering the O2 but one of the posters indicated that it wouldn't be much, if any, better than my D10. ...

if you can solder, i doubt that you'll have any problems building your own sunrise from the kit & save some $.  it is really well laid out, with a well-illustrated pdf manual & Jeremy is just an email away if you need support/maintenance.  i am very happy with my old stock rca 12au7 (labelled conn organ) in the sunrise. i prefer it to the nos russky 6n23p, even the late '60s version of those tubes.  but these are not night and day differences, but readily distinguished 'flavorings'.  i also like amperex (bugle boy) 6dj8 in the sunrise.
 
i have not tested the m-stage but i do not doubt that it is a much better amplifier than the amplification stage of the cube.  the current cube, like the m-stage, has sockets which allows for ease of swapping opamps.
 
i don't think you should sell the O2 short by any means --- it has garnered more than a few votes of confidence from people in these threads.  is it better than your d10?  best if you can test it for yourself & decide.
 
hth,

 

[chrislangley4253]

Quote:

Fraggler: Do you have any idea if the T50RPs would sound as good out of the Bottlehead without the S.E.X kit. I am presently considering the Bottlehead Crack and the Project Sunrise. I would use the DAC in my iBasso D10 with either of these...at least initially. WJE: I hadn't thought of just putting a 3.5 mm connector on the stock cable. Thanks for the offer, but I have the skills and the equipment to do this so I'll probably just go ahead and do it. geetarman49: Thanks for the mention of the sunrise hybrid. I could go for a ready built one sunrise or build a Bottlehead Crack myself. Is the 12au7 a lot better than the stock 6N23P tubes? I read that the matrix M-stage is much better than the cube. Have you had a chance to compare them? I was also considering the O2 but one of the posters indicated that it wouldn't be much, if any, better than my D10. chrislangley4253: Thanks for the note on the M-stage and O2. Based on the reviews, I would have thought that the M-stage was significantly better. Lastly, how does one add blank line in these posts??????

A lot of people have one hell of a time reterminating the stock cable. The wires in it are really thin and coated, similar to IEM wires.

Yeah the Matrix M-stage and O2 are both very, very close to being transparent. I think that really speaks pretty highly for the M-stage. A lot of people tag it as a "dark sounding solid-state". I don't think so, I think it's a solid-state sounding solid-state in that it doesn't really sound like much. Now if you start switching out op amps and put in one that doesn't play nice.. You might get a different sound

Enter should add a blank line. If not, I dunno what the heck is up 

 

 

[FraGGleR]

Quote:

Fraggler: Do you have any idea if the T50RPs would sound as good out of the Bottlehead without the S.E.X kit. I am presently considering the Bottlehead Crack and the Project Sunrise. I would use the DAC in my iBasso D10 with either of these...at least initially. WJE: I hadn't thought of just putting a 3.5 mm connector on the stock cable. Thanks for the offer, but I have the skills and the equipment to do this so I'll probably just go ahead and do it. geetarman49: Thanks for the mention of the sunrise hybrid. I could go for a ready built one sunrise or build a Bottlehead Crack myself. Is the 12au7 a lot better than the stock 6N23P tubes? I read that the matrix M-stage is much better than the cube. Have you had a chance to compare them? I was also considering the O2 but one of the posters indicated that it wouldn't be much, if any, better than my D10. chrislangley4253: Thanks for the note on the M-stage and O2. Based on the reviews, I would have thought that the M-stage was significantly better. Lastly, how does one add blank line in these posts??????

Normally I don't talk about amps that I haven't heard, but just a word about the Project Sunrise.  It is basically a beefed up version of the Bravo/Muse/etc. tube hybrid amp originally designed by I believe Sijosae.  A couple guys from the Rockgrotto forums basically spent a lot of much appreciated time figuring out tweaks to get the base version to sound better.  Once I believe they hit the limits of the circuit design, they started selling kits, not unlike the folks who were active in this thread until they got to a "special sauce" recipe and commercialized their T50RP's.  I haven't heard the Project Sunrise, but I have modified my Bravo amp (ironically, following the guides put out by the Project Sunrise designer) and while it sounds quite good now, especially for the money, I feel it is limited in how good it can sound.  It seems that most of the benefits (and expense) of the kit comes from a better layout, a better heater, and some convenience addons to make it easier to roll tubes.  That is great, but don't know how much all that will impact the actual sound quality.  What I am getting at in a very round about way, is that there are probably better kits out there that were designed from the ground up to sound fantastic and not borrowed from an old design that has already been commercialized.  I will apologize in advance if I am incorrect in any of this and I am not trying to diminish the amp or the amp makers, I just feel that there could be better values for the money.  

 

[geetarman49]

Quote:

Normally I don't talk about amps that I haven't heard, but just a word about the Project Sunrise.  It is basically a beefed up version of the Bravo/Muse/etc. tube hybrid amp originally designed by I believe Sijosae.  A couple guys from the Rockgrotto forums basically spent a lot of much appreciated time figuring out tweaks to get the base version to sound better.  Once I believe they hit the limits of the circuit design, they started selling kits, not unlike the folks who were active in this thread until they got to a "special sauce" recipe and commercialized their T50RP's.  I haven't heard the Project Sunrise, but I have modified my Bravo amp (ironically, following the guides put out by the Project Sunrise designer) and while it sounds quite good now, especially for the money, I feel it is limited in how good it can sound.  It seems that most of the benefits (and expense) of the kit comes from a better layout, a better heater, and some convenience addons to make it easier to roll tubes.  That is great, but don't know how much all that will impact the actual sound quality.  What I am getting at in a very round about way, is that there are probably better kits out there that were designed from the ground up to sound fantastic and not borrowed from an old design that has already been commercialized.  I will apologize in advance if I am incorrect in any of this and I am not trying to diminish the amp or the amp makers, I just feel that there could be better values for the money.  

i beg to differ ... but ymmv.  i've had bravo, bravo 1.5, indeed 1.5 and indeed g2.  i performed the rockgrotto updates on my g2 and then had additional negative feedback mod added to my modded g2.  my sunrise v1 prototype was built by Jeremy & it is categorically better in all respects than any of the bravo or indeed variants that i've purchased or had modded.  by all respects, i mean using same tubes - frequency response, noise levels, sense of air, soundstaging, depth of image, dynamics, bass response, etc.    to be fair, i've had my sunrise modded with negative feedback option as well, but these days, it is operated mostly with 0 dB  of negative feedback (i.e. bypassed).  also, all music in original source with set-top universal player and nfb-2 as dac:  cd, sacd, dvd-a.
 
these amps were tested with stock t50rp, dbv#3 t50rp, hfi780, rp-htf600, grado hf-2, and superex st-pro-b.   & to remove any personal bias, i've had my modded indeed g2 compared against my modded sunrise (both with negative feedback mod set at the bypass position) by a friend who regularly sings in several city choirs & who is blessed with exceptional hearing - he prefers the sunrise, by far, but doesn't consider the modded g2 to be bad.  he also thinks the dbv#3 to be an exceptional headphone.  disclosure:  i've given both products (dbv#3 and sunrise + tubes) to him as gifts.
 
from an engineering standpoint, are the ccts related?  absolutely, but it is the implementation details that make this a tale of two cities ... imo.
better value for the $?  in terms of a tube or hybrid, i don't think so ... but against ss such as the O2?   this comparison is less clear & boils down to personal preferences between a tube-flavored device vs solid-state.  note: i haven't heard the O2, but i am contemplating buying one solely for comparison, even tho my personal preference is still tube.
 
for those who might be contemplating a tube or hybrid amp such as indeed or sunrise - the eh 6922 has a rather rubbery characteristic; the 6n23p reflector is better (a NOS '69 is better still), but i prefer old stock rca 12au7 or old stock amperex (bugle boy) 6dj8.  an old stock telefunken pcc88 is pretty darn good as well.

 

[FraGGleR]

Quote:

i beg to differ ... but ymmv.  i've had bravo, bravo 1.5, indeed 1.5 and indeed g2.  i performed the rockgrotto updates on my g2 and then had additional negative feedback mod added to my modded g2.  my sunrise v1 prototype was built by Jeremy & it is categorically better in all respects than any of the bravo or indeed variants that i've purchased or had modded.  by all respects, i mean using same tubes - frequency response, noise levels, sense of air, soundstaging, depth of image, dynamics, bass response, etc.    to be fair, i've had my sunrise modded with negative feedback option as well, but these days, it is operated mostly with 0 dB  of negative feedback (i.e. bypassed).  also, all music in original source with set-top universal player and nfb-2 as dac:  cd, sacd, dvd-a.
 
these amps were tested with stock t50rp, dbv#3 t50rp, hfi780, rp-htf600, grado hf-2, and superex st-pro-b.   & to remove any personal bias, i've had my modded indeed g2 compared against my modded sunrise (both with negative feedback mod set at the bypass position) by a friend who regularly sings in several city choirs & who is blessed with exceptional hearing - he prefers the sunrise, by far, but doesn't consider the modded g2 to be bad.  he also thinks the dbv#3 to be an exceptional headphone.  disclosure:  i've given both products (dbv#3 and sunrise + tubes) to him as gifts.
 
from an engineering standpoint, are the ccts related?  absolutely, but it is the implementation details that make this a tale of two cities ... imo.
better value for the $?  in terms of a tube or hybrid, i don't think so ... but against ss such as the O2?   this comparison is less clear & boils down to personal preferences between a tube-flavored device vs solid-state.  note: i haven't heard the O2, but i am contemplating buying one solely for comparison, even tho my personal preference is still tube.

Cool.  Thanks for your expanded thoughts.  Sounds like it has the best implementation of the circuit which can provide a substantial degree of improvement even beyond a modified Bravo.  It would be great it there were more comparisons to other hybrid designs in that price range.  That kit is as much as a Millet Hybrid Max or an EHHA kit (minus enclosure work), which have gotten much love on Headfi and are supposedly in a different range of sound quality than something based on the simpler Sijosae circuit.  That was more the thrust of my comment.

 

[geetarman49]

indeed ... & i certainly wasn't trying to denigrate your impressions.  speaking about impressions, i think the choice of tube can make or break these particular types of amps whereas with the O2 there is certainly no such risk.
 
when i initially received my sunrise, i was not overly impressed ...  yes, it was better than my indeed/bravo but it had such a tonality which made it sound like all instruments were covered with a rubber layer -- i later discovered that the eh 6922 was the culprit.  only when i moved to old stock tubes (1950s, '60s, '70s) was i really satisfied.   i think a really good tube to try is a nos rca 12au7 cleartop which is readily available at relatively cheap price - some of these can be found as organ "pulls" with the organ company name on the tube, but they are rca origin.
 

 

[onefatsurfer]

I don't have the higher-end amps that some of you guys have, but I'm very happy with running these off of a cmoyBB or a fiio e10.  Both have plenty of power and sound fantastic.  Just my 2 cents...

 

[chrislangley4253]

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I don't have the higher-end amps that some of you guys have, but I'm very happy with running these off of a cmoyBB or a fiio e10.  Both have plenty of power and sound fantastic.  Just my 2 cents...

Hell, they run just fine off my sansa clip+ like.. 80-90% of the time. I figured that out while I had my computer apart to paint my room. Didn't have my amp or dac on hand.. So I tried out just the clip

 

[eltocliousus]

Quote:

Hell, they run just fine off my sansa clip+ like.. 80-90% of the time. I figured that out while I had my computer apart to paint my room. Didn't have my amp or dac on hand.. So I tried out just the clip

 
I've done the same thing and was very surprised at how well the clip+ did, the Fostex really do not need a lot of amplification, but they get better with it.