[Maxx134]

I like cheap wire...
But I own expensive ones instead..



Bias cannot be defeated...

Sad

I am currently making a cheap headphone cable, using some highly insulated "Cat 7" Ethernet cable,

as I am experimenting with the idea of this type cable, being somewhat similar in design layout, to my expensive wireworld cable..

I am thinking this is a perfect (and cheap!) cable for headphones, while also being highly insulated.

Will bias will prevail?

 

[pinnahertz]

Will bias will prevail?

Always.

 

[F208Frank]

Why do people feel the need to try to convince each other regarding this topic. You just do as what you believe, buy them if you believe in them, do not buy them if you do not. For me personally, I do feel they have heavy diminishing returns, but I do feel they make a difference depending on situation/set up/combinations.

 

[old tech]

Why do people feel the need to try to convince each other regarding this topic. You just do as what you believe, buy them if you believe in them, do not buy them if you do not. For me personally, I do feel they have heavy diminishing returns, but I do feel they make a difference depending on situation/set up/combinations.

Perhaps because it is a sound science forum ? If I wanted to claim saying a prayer before playing my stereo improves the sound quality surely in a science forum I need to provide objective evidence rather than just saying I feel it makes a difference. There are other forums that cater to non scientific beliefs.

 

[gregorio]

[1] Why do people feel the need to try to convince each other regarding this topic.
[2] You just do as what you believe, buy them if you believe in them, do not buy them if you do not.
[3] For me personally, I do feel they have heavy diminishing returns, but I do feel they make a difference depending on situation/set up/combinations.

1. Because the actual facts matter. As old tech stated, this is the Sound Science forum and the whole point of Science is the actual facts, separating them from false beliefs/myths/marketing BS. On the other side of the coin, those who ignore the actual facts and subscribe to the myths often try to convince others for a variety of reasons, most commonly to justify their expenditure and/or effectively massage their ego.

2. That would be fine if those who "believe in them" and "buy them" had no affect on those who don't. However, that's not the case. Belief can be manipulated (which is the WHOLE point of marketing) and audiophile manufacturers develop and make products that cater to what people believe they want. So we have a sort of feedback loop that affects the choice of those who who rely on the actual facts rather than the marketing BS. Our choice is often restricted, more expensive than it should be or sometimes, eliminated entirely!

3. You are of course entitled to feel whatever you want but the actual facts/science prove that typically the returns are not "heavily diminishing", they are typically no returns (the same fidelity/performance) or in some cases, actually a negative return (lower fidelity/performance)! Stating that there is an audible difference, without any reliable supporting evidence, is effectively an attempted perversion of science (and this subforum) which is of course likely to be viewed as an insult, even though I'm sure you didn't intend it to be.

G

 

[F208Frank]

Well broken down and fair statements. With that though, would it be fair to say companies who make great headphones such as the Abyss 1266, according to the logic you wrote should be shamed for having a line up of cables then?

They sell a great headphone but they also cables in wide range of prices (from 400 ish to 1500 ish on average excluding the top top line). Are you basically stating Abyss is knowingly selling "snake oil" then since they should know better?

I'm not trying to argue with you I'm genuinely trying to understand.

 

[bigshot]

Are you basically stating Abyss is knowingly selling "snake oil" then since they should know better?

Cables are traditionally an upsell item. They cost little to make and can be sold at a terrific mark up. Headphones have a much smaller profit margin. So they create branded cables and tell people, "these cables are designed to work with our headphones." That isn't a lie. They are color co-ordinated and have the proper jacks to plug into their particular cans. But do they make an audible difference? Nope. Does the stick shift knob with the Porsche logo on it shift gears better than any other similarly shaped hunk of wood? Nope. But go to your Porsche dealership and buy one and see how much they charge you for it. But if you already own the Porsche, you want the proper brand of shift knob regardless of cost, right?

Cables either work or they don't. As long as you get the right cable for the purpose, it doesn't matter if it is a $1500 cable or a $3 Amazon Basics cable. They all should sound the same. If they don't, either you are using the wrong cable for the job, or the cable is defective.

Oppo sent me a set of PM-1s to evaluate when they were first testing them. They came with a fancy braided cable that had all kinds of fancy specs. They also included a cheap lightweight cable that was intended for plugging into the phone in your pocket if you are walking around. Both cables sounded exactly the same.

 

[F208Frank]

That is fair enough, once again I'm not here to argue but to have interesting discussion.

In the YouTube videos of Abyss, they outright say cables do matter. If they truly felt to the core that they do not, wouldn't they be hesitant to make that claim since they have been in the audio biz for a LONG time and know non cable believers exist and would be offending a portion of the potential buyers plus the possibility of non believers to not buy their headphones since they are making debatably false claims? What is your take that?

I just find it hard to see them saying something they do not believe in to potentially offend a certain group if they did not believe in it themselves. It is not like they have not been around long enough to know that non believers would be extremely resistant to hear that. Not only that, non believers would then be supporting a company giving false information if they bought their headphones.

I hope you see what I'm trying to get at and I hope this brings interesting productive discussion.

 

[bigshot]

You have to understand that companies don't speak with one voice. The marketing department might say something different than the engineering department would. The purpose of a salesman is to convince you that you absolutely need his product. They just have to tell you *their* truth, not the whole truth. In audiophile circles, there's plenty of unverified anecdotal claims that cables make a difference. There's also plenty of scientific evidence to show that if you are using a cable the way it was intended, they don't make a lick of difference. A salesman is free to choose whichever opinion he wants as a selling point. He doesn't have to always say exactly what the engineers say. He picks and chooses the evidence he thinks will convince you to make a purchase. That's why so many audiophile websites are wallpapered with testimonials. Customers can make any kind of crazy claim they want. All a salesman has to do is pick and choose the testimonials he likes, and point at them and say, "Look at what our customers are saying about our product!" The salesman isn't lying to you. He is just selectively sculpting what he wants you to think by presenting only the info that suits his purpose. It's up to you to get information from less biased sources to make an informed decision. And you are doing that right here, right now! Good job!

Most of us here in Sound Science are aware of this site, but I'll share it with you. This is an in-depth look at cables by one of the top engineers at McIntosh. You don't get more high end than that. Check out what he has to say about wires. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm There's also a lot of good info here... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths.486598/ I'd also encourage you to read the links in my sig file below. There are two great videos from the Audio Engineering Society on audiophile myths, and a great article on HD audio vs CD quality sound.

 

[SpeakerBox]

3. You are of course entitled to feel whatever you want but the actual facts/science prove that typically the returns are not "heavily diminishing", they are typically no returns (the same fidelity/performance) or in some cases, actually a negative return (lower fidelity/performance)! Stating that there is an audible difference, without any reliable supporting evidence, is effectively an attempted perversion of science (and this subforum) which is of course likely to be viewed as an insult, even though I'm sure you didn't intend it to be.

G

Then cables can impact the sound.

 

[koven]

I don't really believe in cables impacting SQ but I still buy them because they look better than generic black cords. Need me some bling bling, baby. Actually I've nearly convinced myself that power cables do make a subtle difference but it's not something I would bet money on in a double blind test.

 

[castleofargh]

how do I know which cable to purchase for my audio needs? I've checked "audiophile" brands on occasion trying to see electrical specs to find out what was so special about their cables:

Sometimes, I couldn't even find a clear gauge value. And quite often they'd simply not follow the standard for the given cable type... So every engineer works hard to design a product that will be best and be most stable under a given set of conditions and standards, and then some "audiophile" cable maker arrives and declares that he knows better. Well, ok. Good luck to them and I'll get a standard conductor somewhere else.

If that's how I can get my cables to sound noticeably different, I'd rather have them all sound the same TBH. Not that I wished for electrical conductors to take on the role of EQ and sound processors in the first place.

 

[Yuurei]

Well. Cables sure matter as the electrical conductor. But if people are claiming that "this or that cable sounds amazing" why do they even bother to connect speakers or headphones to them?

 

[Maxx134]

it doesn't matter if it is a $1500 cable or a $3 Amazon Basics cable

I finished my cheapo 3-pack cat7 cable into a headphone cable!
Now I can test and compare against my expensive ones!

Also made one adapter. Have to make next one later.

it doesn't matter if it is a $1500 cable or a $3 Amazon Basics cable. They all should sound the same.

There is an prevailing issue with Headphone cables.

I am thinking they should be separated from general threads like this.

I am of opinion we need specific testing for Headphone cables, simply because of the insanely complex wiring/insulation/braiding going on.

So far, my low cost headphone cable made of a cat7 cable is proving that either insulation or shielding matters, as I hearing more spacial info than a stock headphone cable.

So I feel there are bigger problems and rip-offs in this market, than all the other wire markets currently...

Users need help, regardless our positions either way.

they were first testing them. They came with a fancy braided cable that had all kinds of fancy specs. They also included a cheap lightweight cable that was intended for plugging into the phone in your pocket if you are walking around. Both cables sounded exactly the same

I also owned the oppo amp, and PM1 & also PM2, and can say the thicker oppo cable actually was truly an excellent cable, and better than others when I compared.
But I never compared the portable cable.

You remain an enigma to me, for not having hearing any difference in anything wire related at all.

Why because, like everyone posts, we all have integral bias in our perceptions.
Maybe your bias is to actually not hear?
Bias still the enemy!
Hehe!

 

[gregorio]

[1] I just find it hard to see them saying something they do not believe in to potentially offend a certain group if they did not believe in it themselves. It is not like they have not been around long enough to know that non believers would be extremely resistant to hear that. Not only that, non believers would then be supporting a company giving false information if they bought their headphones.
[2] I hope you see what I'm trying to get at and I hope this brings interesting productive discussion.

1. From a business survival/success perspective, what's better: "Potentially offend a [small] certain group, that they did not believe in themselves" and sell a product that's quick, easy and cheap to make, store and transport but has a huge profit margin or be completely honest and not sell such a product?

Also it's not just "hard to see them saying" this marketing BS, it's very hard! It's not just Abyss saying this sort of thing but companies like Audioquest, Chord, Monster and countless others. Is there really a global cable conspiracy going back decades, that no one has ever stopped? I for one do not subscribe to all the ridiculous conspiracy theories out there. However, the objective facts/measurements speak for themselves, or rather they do, if/when you can find them. And, it's not really a conspiracy, it's not like all the manufacturers had a secret meeting and agreed to deceive the whole world. A company started selling/marketing ridiculously expensive "audiophile" cables that made no actual audible difference, made an easy profit and another company noticed and decided to get a bit of that action themselves and then another did, and as the market grew, so did the number of companies trying to get a piece of that extremely tasty pie. So although it's not really an actual global conspiracy, it's effectively the same as one. So why hasn't it been stopped? Simply because there's not enough people complaining about the scam and it's not serious enough, unlike with say falsely advertised drugs, it doesn't kill or seriously harm anyone. They are occasionally acted against, for example Chord were found guilty of falsely advertising a cable by the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) but there is no fine or other punitive cost or consequence, the advert simply had to be removed and Chord were not even required to tell anyone they'd be found guilty. All they did was put out the same advert again, with slightly different wording that implied better fidelity rather than making the direct claim.

2. We do get audiophile trolls/shills here sometimes but untill we're pretty sure you are one, we'll take your posts at face value, that you're just trying to make sense of the information you've come across.

Then cables can impact the sound.

Sure, they can impact the sound. In some rare and very specific circumstances they can even "impact the sound" enough to be audible but in virtually all cases the fidelity is affected at such a low level that it can't even be reproduced by speakers or headphones, so doesn't "impact the sound" .

[1] I don't really believe in cables impacting SQ but I still buy them because they look better than generic black cords. Need me some bling bling, baby.
[2] Actually I've nearly convinced myself that power cables do make a subtle difference but it's not something I would bet money on in a double blind test.

1. I don't have any problem with that and I don't think anyone else here does either. Spending considerably more on bling, say brand name and/or appearance, is fine. However, the vast majority of audiophiles who buy expensive cables aren't just doing it for the bling, they think/believe they're also getting an actual audio improvement that's audible. They've been scammed and are deluded!

2. Wise move, it would be bad enough to waste money on an audiophile power cable and worse still to waste even more on loosing a bet!

G