[BassicScience]

Half truths.

Compounding as ThanatosVI was quoting tusing in relation to his Alpha player power specifications. Last I heard the 12 Vrms official spec is under no load.

12 Vrms is of only passing interest. You are correct that at higher currents, it probably sags. What you need to know is the rated power of the amp into 60 ohms, and whether that drives Susvara (comfortably) to the volume level you desire. That is the whole truth.

 

[paradoxper]

12 Vrms is of only passing interest. You are correct that at higher currents, it probably sags. What you need to know is the rated power of the amp into 60 ohms, and whether that drives Susvara (comfortably) to the volume level you desire. That is the whole truth.

Not only is the Alpha nominally powerful in watts, it is current limited.

 

[BassicScience]

Not only is the Alpha nominally powerful in watts, it is current limited.

The amount of current an amp can deliver (with acceptable distortion) into a given load determines how powerful it is, full stop. "Nominally" is meaningless technically.

I think I'm done with this digression. Cheers.

 

[paradoxper]

The amount of current an amp can deliver (with acceptable distortion) into a given load determines how powerful it is, full stop. "Nominally" is meaningless technically.

I think I'm done with this digression. Cheers.

You blabber about generalities.

 

[nwavesailor]

You blabber about generalities.

I understand that a lot of us always want to be right and get in the last word on a subject. particularly of a technical nature.

I appreciate expertise and enjoy a good natured exchange on these subjects but not I'm right so you have to be wrong.
We can all agree to disagree or perhaps disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[jlbrach]

You blabber about generalities.

whenever I read you lecturing or critiquing people here I always feel as though I am back in grade school lol

 

[paradoxper]

I understand that a lot of us always want to be right and get in the last word on a subject. particularly of a technical nature.

I appreciate expertise and enjoy a good natured exchange on these subjects but not I'm right so you have to be wrong.
We can all agree to disagree or perhaps disagree without being disagreeable.

I am pretty sure though we are parsing semantics, BassicScience is just fine.

And more importantly, it's good for @tusing to see through the marketing BS that is rather deceptive to avoid bad purchasing choices based on perceived technical merit.

 

[Orlok]

It certainly does

Man, the 13R is just so sexy! The WA33 beckons me from the tube world and this amp beckons me from the SS realm. And, then, there's the new Wells Audio Dragon from the hybrid side. I've developed an incurable amp lust.

 

[tusing]

The Susvara is a planar with only 60 Ohm. The voltage isn't the problem to drive these, it's The current

The impedance of the Susvara isn't the relevant parameter here; its sensitivity (or lack thereof) is. In order to get decent volume, you have to feed it (comparatively) a lot of power. If the amp can't deliver that much power (cleanly), it won't work with the Susvara.

Sure they are related, you need more voltage and less current for high impedance headphones.
And less voltage but more current for low impedance headphones to reach the same power output/volume

In the case of the Susvara 83db/mW and 60 Ohm impedance you' need the following for 115db SPL.

~9.7V and ~160mA = ~1.58W

If it were a 600 Ohm headphone with the same Sensitivity you'd need
~30V and only ~51mA = ~1.58W

The reason I ask is because the Susvara apparently requires only 3.49 Vrms (=159mW with its 60 ohm load) to output 105 dB (calculator). The KANN Alpha does 12 Vrms, so I was thinking it would be way overkill.

I am actually very confused by everyone recommending what seem to be very overkill amps. If the 83 dB/mW figure is right, you all should be blowing out your ears well before utilizing the full range of the amp. This clearly isn’t the case, so I’m wondering where the calculations are wrong. How are you guys managing to utilize even a fraction of say, the Bakoon or speaker amps’ output? When buying an amp for the Susvara, what specs did you look at to determine if it would be sufficient?

Either Hifiman put down incorrect specs for their $6k headphone, or something else is going on here, but I can’t put my finger on it.

 

[Trance_Gott]

Even my Shanling M8 can drive the Susvara loud! I'm sure the Kann Alpha can it also.
Yeah vs my V281 there is maybe a poop lower bass and it cannot drive it 110db loud but that's all. In sound quality I'm missing nothing the tonality is spot on.

 

[BassicScience]

The reason I ask is because the Susvara apparently requires only 3.49 Vrms (=159mW with its 60 ohm load) to output 105 dB (calculator). The KANN Alpha does 12 Vrms, so I was thinking it would be way overkill.

I am actually very confused by everyone recommending what seem to be very overkill amps. If the 83 dB/mW figure is right, you all should be blowing out your ears well before utilizing the full range of the amp. This clearly isn’t the case, so I’m wondering where the calculations are wrong. How are you guys managing to utilize even a fraction of say, the Bakoon or speaker amps’ output? When buying an amp for the Susvara, what specs did you look at to determine if it would be sufficient?

Either Hifiman put down incorrect specs for their $6k headphone, or something else is going on here, but I can’t put my finger on it.

As an amp sources more current, the amount of voltage it can swing decreases by an amount that is amp-dependent. That's why the quoted 12 Vrms is essentially meaningless. You should pay attention to an amp's rated power instead. The rule of thumb is that the Susvara requires roughly 1.5 W into 60 ohms, but you should always listen instead of relying solely on specs.

As to why some of us use much more powerful amps to drive Susvara, it's because there's a lot more to an amp's performance than its rated power. Another thing to consider is that volume increases only 3dB with a doubling of power, so high-powered amps aren't as absurd as they may seem in this context especially if one listens to music with lots of dynamic range, which demands high power over short intervals. All that said, the Susvara can be a highly satisfying listen with a moderately-powered amp; it just won't attain its full potential, in my experience.

 

[tusing]

As an amp sources more current, the amount of voltage it can swing decreases by an amount that is amp-dependent. That's why the quoted 12 Vrms is essentially meaningless. You should pay attention to an amp's rated power instead. The rule of thumb is that the Susvara requires roughly 1.5 W into 60 ohms, but you should always listen instead of relying solely on specs.

As to why some of us use much more powerful amps to drive Susvara, it's because there's a lot more to an amp's performance than its rated power. Another thing to consider is that volume increases only 3dB with a doubling of power, so high-powered amps aren't as absurd as they may seem in this context especially if one listens to music with lots of dynamic range, which demands high power over short intervals. All that said, the Susvara can be a highly satisfying listen with a moderately-powered amp; it just won't attain its full potential, in my experience.

Thanks for the notes. I am struggling to understand some of the things you said:

- pay attention to an amp's rated power instead
Is the rated power not dependent on Vrms and the provided load (60 ohms)? For example, 12 Vrms is 2.4 watts at 60 ohms (https://tools.analog.com/en/toolbox/dbconvert). At 8 ohms this is ~18 watts (the Bakoon is 25W @ 8 ohms).

- volume increases only 3dB with a doubling of power
Right, but at an 83 mW/dB sensitivity, you reach a dangerously high 105 dB listening level with 159 mW. How loud do you typically listen? If you listened at 110 dB, I suppose you could need around 5.49 Vrms/502 mW...

- Susvara can be a highly satisfying listen with a moderately-powered amp; it just won't attain its full potential, in my experience.
Thanks, yes, I am trying to understand why. These are electrical systems in the end, so what principle tells us that an overkill amp will provide more for the Susvara? I am trying to understand the principles behind amp selection for this headphone so I can pick one more confidently.

 

[paradoxper]

whenever I read you lecturing or critiquing people here I always feel as though I am back in grade school lol

I think mostly you put yourself in that place to feel that way.

Lecturing, critiquing, arguing, discussing it all feels the same to me.

I don't disagree with how you interpret things.

 

[jlbrach]

Even my Shanling M8 can drive the Susvara loud! I'm sure the Kann Alpha can it also.
Yeah vs my V281 there is maybe a poop lower bass and it cannot drive it 110db loud but that's all. In sound quality I'm missing nothing the tonality is spot on.

I think the amount of power needed is a bit overrated here for the most part but you do need to get to that threshold or else the susvara will not sound its best...out of my dave alone the susvara simply does not sound proper,it simply cannot drive them...with the bakoon 13r it is night and day like a completely different HP

 

[BassicScience]

Thanks for the notes. I am struggling to understand some of the things you said:

- pay attention to an amp's rated power instead
Is the rated power not dependent on Vrms and the provided load (60 ohms)? For example, 12 Vrms is 2.4 watts at 60 ohms (https://tools.analog.com/en/toolbox/dbconvert). At 8 ohms this is ~18 watts (the Bakoon is 25W @ 8 ohms).

- volume increases only 3dB with a doubling of power
Right, but at an 83 mW/dB sensitivity, you reach a dangerously high 105 dB listening level with 159 mW. How loud do you typically listen? If you listened at 110 dB, I suppose you could need around 5.49 Vrms/502 mW...

- Susvara can be a highly satisfying listen with a moderately-powered amp; it just won't attain its full potential, in my experience.
Thanks, yes, I am trying to understand why. These are electrical systems in the end, so what principle tells us that an overkill amp will provide more for the Susvara? I am trying to understand the principles behind amp selection for this headphone so I can pick one more confidently.

I suggest you read the spec sheet of the Kann Alpha, as I just did. The 12 Vrms has the qualifier "Condition No Load". There is no spec for rated output power that I can see.

Again, there is quite a lot to consider beyond an amp's rated power. How much distortion (harmonic and intermodulation) and noise is present? What is the profile of the distortion products? Distortion tends to rise sharply as an amp approaches its limits, which is one reason you want to have power in reserve. Does an amp maintain linear frequency response when driving difficult loads? Does an amp introduce a lot of phase shift? Etc. Specs can answer some of these questions, but most manufacturers don't provide very complete specs. Publishers such as Stereophile and the ASR web site go into more depth.

The ultimate bottom line is whether a given amp sounds good to your ears!