Hifiman Sundara (HE400i upgraded, around $500)
Mar 7, 2018 at 9:59 PM Post #616 of 4,250
Can anyone give a comparison of the HEX V2 vs the Sundara?

I'm looking to upgrade from my Fidelio X2, so I've been auditioning a bunch of higher end models including the 800S, LCD-X, Clear, Elear, HEX V2, MHP1000, Pryma, Meze Classic (not high end). I initially heard the LCD-X and 800S at a local dealer and walked away thinking that I may not find a headphone that I liked enough to spend the money on. I was expecting to be impressed by the sound of them since they were the first pairs over $300 that I'd heard. I was surprised to find that I found the LCD-X to dark for my taste and the 800S too lean/bright. Between the two, I preferred the 800S, but to me the sound was to light on bass/body and I didn't find it satisfying. I certainly didn't feel the need to upgrade. I kept reading about how great the Focal offerings were and how the Clear was fairly neutral with better bass and overall tone compared to the 800S. I made it a point to locate a dealer that had the Clear and they ended up having all of the other headphones I listed. I spent hours listening to them through a Questyle CMA800i, my LG V20 and a Questyle QPR1.

Of all the headphones the Clear and HEX V2 were my favorites with the HEX V2 being my overall favorite by a larger margin than I would have ever guessed. I say that because the LCD-X was my first planar headphone experience and it was far from a sound that I desired. I read a lot of people talking about the "planar sound" and after hearing the LCD-X I was pretty sure the planar sound wasn't for me. That was, until I heard the HEX V2. I had first listened to the Clear for about 15-20 minutes before I put on the HEX V2. To be honest, I liked the Clear more than the other headphones and more than the 800S and LCD-X, but I felt like there was a sharpness to the sound that made me want to turn them down below a level that I would normally listen. I then decided to try the HEX V2 even though I already held a prejudice against planar drivers and was pretty sure I wouldn't care for them. My initial response was "wow, this sounds so open and lifelike without the sharpness of the Clear". I listened to many different types of music for a good 20 minutes and began to really fall in love with the sound. I put the Clear back on and although I liked the dynamic sound, I missed the larger soundstage of the HEX V2 and was growing even more tired of the sharpness of the Clear. The owner asked what I thought and when I told him my feelings he stated that he felt it was because the Clear were new and hadn't had a chance to "burn in", but the HEX V2 had many hours of play.

I read the Clear thread, so I know that many people felt the Clear lose the sharpness in time, so I may really like them once burned in. Of course, I read something similar about my X2, but if I'm honest with myself, I still have the same impressions of the sound since the first time I heard them (boomy bass, recessed mids and grainy treble with some sibilance). Having said that, I found the X2 to hold up very well with some of the more expensive cans that I tried.

So, the reason I didn't just go ahead and buy the HEX V2 when I loved the sound was because I didn't like the way they fit/felt. With the headband at it's smallest setting, it felt like it sat a little low on my ears. I also found the large yokes/pads to sit uncomfortably on my cheek bones. When I first put them on, I disliked the fit so much that I almost didn't listen to them, but I really wanted to hear another planar headphone. I'm glad I heard them because I really enjoyed the sound (more than any other headphone), but I'm also sorry I heard them because I found the sound I wanted in a headphone that I refuse to wear everyday.

I'm wondering how similar the sound of the Sundara is because it looks like a more comfortable design. If it sound similar with a large soundstage, good bass and lack of sharpness/sibiliance in the treble, then I would be very interested.

I apologize for the long post, I just wanted to explain how I got here.
 
Mar 7, 2018 at 10:51 PM Post #617 of 4,250
I wish I still had the older Hifimans to compare. The treble has a weird tonality due to lowered upper treble, and the peaking at around 5k, creates a dull combined with peaks coming out at times. This sounds like a bad EQ, and when you hear EQ that doesn't sound right? This is that Shhhh, sibilance which is around 5k that is emphasized. Not Chhhh, which is about 7k, which also creates grain sounds. Vocals are sound inaccurate.

Vocals usually have transition of different tones as the sound changes, and when it transitions with peaks there, the transition is not smooth. The peak effects the transition of vocals as it changes tones during the singing.

So far, no body in this thread complained about sibilance as far as I remember. To make sure, I just tested Sundara again on some track that was unbearable to me with hd800s.

To my ears, I can say that Sundara is not sibilant at all. Nothing more than Clear, if any. Even though it is considered leaning toward bright, its treble is quite smooth, or at least not sibilant (though I think treble in aeon open flow is better in terms of naturalness and musicality). Also, I don't feel treble is grainy. I feel it is a rather laid back, or recessed, or veiled, or all of them.

Add: my only complaint about Sundara is that I wish it had mids with more weights, denser sounds, or more defined mids/treble.
 
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Mar 7, 2018 at 11:06 PM Post #618 of 4,250
I'm somewhat borderline in believing in burn-in, but for planars I feel like I've experienced sound changing which could be explained by burn-in. It sounds like treble is smoothing out as I keep playing.

Have anybody experienced this? Initially, different tones sounded emphasized, and changes over time? Earlier on it sounded like shhh was emphasized, and not it sounds like chhh. Maybe, it's burn-in. Treble sounds smoother now. I don't know how else I can experience that changing I'm hearing. I swear earlier on I heard 5k treble peaks, and it's hard to imagine my ears would burn-in or get used to treble uneven-ness.
 
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Mar 7, 2018 at 11:26 PM Post #620 of 4,250
I'm somewhat borderline in believing in burn-in, but for planars I feel like I've experienced sound changing which could be explained by burn-in. It sounds like treble is smoothing out as I keep playing.

Have anybody experienced this? Initially, different tones sounded emphasized, and changes over time? Earlier on it sounded like shhh was emphasized, and not it sounds like chhh. Maybe, it's burn-in. Treble sounds smoother now. I don't know how else I can experience that changing I'm hearing. I swear earlier on I heard 5k treble peaks, and it's hard to imagine my ears would burn-in or get used to treble uneven-ness.
Ok, it's sounding better now. :smile_phones: I guess the drivers took time to break in.

How long have you listened to them? I just got a brand new pair and seemed to notice a subtle, but noticeable change in a very short period of time.
 
Mar 7, 2018 at 11:35 PM Post #622 of 4,250
Sundra's sound is lighter and softer. Compared to Sundara, ethers and aeon flow open are more mid-centric, especially for aeon flow open. Vocals are denser and have more weights, but not as light or soft like Sundara.

To my ears, vocals on Sundara sound a bit distant (or veiled), so I need to raise volume quite a bit for my liking.

Tyll also mentions that about the Sundara vocals. I know it's a huge turnoff to a lot of people, but whenever I hear that a headphone has recessed vocals I get interested since I listen mostly to instrumental music. I'm coming from the HD650, which had very upfront and present vocals, but I think for that reason and because of the narrow soundstage orchestral music didn't sound so good on them.

Tyll's review certainly got me thinking about the Sundara again after I had scratched it off my list. Then again, I'm not sure why I would listen to Tyll when my tastes seem to diverge from his so much. He likes the HD650 and HE400i, two headphones I sold, while he dislikes the HE560 and M1060, two headphones I kept. I was just listening to Bruno Mars' 24K Magic on my modded M1060 and it just blows me away. Much more engaging than the HE560 for this type of music, although classical and jazz sound much better on the HE560. I feel that the two main headphones I currently own complement each other perfectly.

My comparison to HE-560:
  • Treble is noticeably less than the HE-560: I think the treble on Ed Sheeren's Thinking Out Loud is perfect on the Sundara but is too bright on the HE 560
  • Mids seem slightly more recessed on the Sundara - could that have something to do with it being less bright?
  • Bass extension is on par with the HE-560 but bass volume seems slightly less: on Michael Jackson's Dirty Diana you can feel the low frequency reverberation from 0:05 to 0:12 on both Sundara and HE-560, but slightly stronger on the HE-560
  • Overall, I think the Sundara has a flatter, more balanced sound signature and I prefer that; however, if you liked the HE-560's brightness, you may find the Sundara too warm/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comparison to the HE-560. Which do you think handles classical music better?
 
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Mar 7, 2018 at 11:37 PM Post #623 of 4,250
About 3 hrs now. I noticed the changes 20min ago, but my crappy impressions were about 3 hours ago to about 30min ago.

I seemed to notice some change in under a few hours, but I'm not 100% sure what to attribute that to. I also wasn't critically listening as much as I could have been.

Plan on burning these in for 100+ hours. After that then they'll be going toe-to-toe with the LCD-2C, Aeon Flow Open, Acoustic Research AR-H1 and Advanced Alpha in a $500-800 open planar Battle Royale! I'll be doing a big write-up comparison for them and possibly a video review...
 
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Mar 7, 2018 at 11:45 PM Post #624 of 4,250
I seemed to notice some change in under a few hours, but I'm not 100% sure what to attribute that to. I also wasn't critically listening as much as I could have been.

Plan on burning these in for 100+ hours. After that then they'll be going toe-to-toe with the LCD-2C, Aeon Flow Open, Acoustic Research AR-H1 and Advanced Alpha in a $500-800 open planar Battle Royale! I'll be doing a big write-up comparison for them.
Usually I try to find some rationale for such circumstance, but this time really convinced me, and I have had instances with planars in the past I was considering that the drivers broke-in. This situation really pushes the belief. Pretty noticeable change this time.

Now I'm hearing what it is suppose to sound like, unless it breaks-in anymore(Hope it does, and get better and better like wine. LOL.). I will be in look-out for your Battle Royale.
 
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Mar 7, 2018 at 11:49 PM Post #625 of 4,250
Tyll also mentions that about the Sundara vocals. I know it's a huge turnoff to a lot of people, but whenever I hear that a headphone has recessed vocals I get interested since I listen mostly to instrumental music. I'm coming from the HD650, which had very upfront and present vocals, but I think for that reason and because of the narrow soundstage orchestral music didn't sound so good on them.

Tyll's review certainly got me thinking about the Sundara again after I had scratched it off my list. Then again, I'm not sure why I would listen to Tyll when my tastes seem to diverge from his so much. He likes the HD650 and HE400i, two headphones I sold, while he dislikes the HE560 and M1060, two headphones I kept. I was just listening to Bruno Mars' 24K Magic on my modded M1060 and it just blows me away. Much more engaging than the HE560 for this type of music, although classical and jazz sound much better on the HE560. I feel that the two main headphones I currently own complement each other perfectly.



Thanks for the comparison to the HE-560. Which do you think handles classical music better?

I agree. I believe what kinds of music we listen to plays a big part when we need to choose one among others. Tyll tends to recommend a hp with more neutral in frequency responses. And my understanding is that if a hp is closer to neutral, it becomes closer to an all-arounder. But if you have a specific need, you don't need to stick to an all-arounder. You will need to dig more about current offerings in the market to find one which suits to your preference.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 12:07 AM Post #626 of 4,250
Ok, I now understand why Tyll put the Sundara in the Wall of Fame. Definitely deserves to be on there. These do sound neutral or at least balanced.. I like them, great performance for the price-point. Definitely another step forward for Hifiman.

Just make sure they are broke-in before making any impressions, don't make the same mistake as me.
 
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Mar 8, 2018 at 12:41 AM Post #627 of 4,250
Ok, it's sounding better now. :smile_phones: I guess the drivers took time to break in.

Hahahaha. I had exactly the same impression as you. First hour. Put them on. There is some weird stuff happening with treble and upper mids but not so bad. Next 3-4 hours. Well I guess I can get used to them. Next day (after leaving the headphones playing for like 8 hours). I now almost forgot there were some weird stuff happening. One week now. These highs are perfect. What? Even the mids sound somewhat more present. What is going on.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 12:47 AM Post #628 of 4,250
Hahahaha. I had exactly the same impression as you. First hour. Put them on. There is some weird stuff happening with treble and upper mids but not so bad. Next 3-4 hours. Well I guess I can get used to them. Next day (after leaving the headphones playing for like 8 hours). I now almost forgot there were some weird stuff happening. One week now. These highs are perfect. What? Even the mids sound somewhat more present. What is going on.

The thing is our ears adapt to their sounds. I never bother to reach ether c flow while I owned aeon flow open for 3 months. After aeon flow open has gone, I was quite dissatisfied with ether c flow for a while. After a few weeks, my ears adapt to ether c flow, and I now fully enjoyed it once again.

Lesson learned. As far as I don't try a better one, I can't forget about them and I can live happily forever.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 12:48 AM Post #629 of 4,250
Hahahaha. I had exactly the same impression as you. First hour. Put them on. There is some weird stuff happening with treble and upper mids but not so bad. Next 3-4 hours. Well I guess I can get used to them. Next day (after leaving the headphones playing for like 8 hours). I now almost forgot there were some weird stuff happening. One week now. These highs are perfect. What? Even the mids sound somewhat more present. What is going on.
Right now treble is much smoother than earlier on. After comparing with my Utopia, I can understand when people say low toned male vocals sounds recessed or distanced. I would describe as distanced(rather than recessed) as it's not a warm sounding headphone that can bury the vocals, but keeps the vocals sounding clear even-though low toned male vocals do sound like it has taken a step back. Or is Utopia slightly more forward? There can't be any mid bleed with these as it's not a warm headphone. Bass has opened up, it's sounding more dynamic than earlier with better bass definition now.
 
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:17 AM Post #630 of 4,250
I used an Audio-gd R2R 11.
It is not adequate amp for HD650/6XX.
For example when i owned HD650 i used 2 amps ss - Musical Fidelity M1hpa and tube amp Little Dot Mk3 upgraded with C3g+6SN7 and even if the MF is a v.transparent amp when i moved on LD the difference was obvious-bigger more 3D stage,mids to die for plus crystal clear highs,and keep in mind that LD it is not the last word on tube amps ,there are many better amps.
 

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