xnor
Headphoneus Supremus
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Yup. And properly implemented crossfeed has little to do with sound bleeding uncontrolledly from one channel into the other.
Hifiman HM-801 RMAA Tests
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JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
Whereas I could hear the roll-off (and didn't like it), I could also hear a greater refinement from the HiFiMan sample (which I liked).
What is there to be proved? If it sounds better in the sense of more refined and better resolving, it is better. As to measurements, you still seem to deny the possibility that two devices may measure identical and sound different.
The Corda Symphony (as shown earlier in this thread) enables different filter settings, some of them with a treble roll-off. It is audible to my ears, nevertheless these settings have the typical Symphony characteristic which makes a classic, linear filter setting more similar to them than to the DAC2 or UDP-1 characteristic with quasi-identical measuring data.
What are you talking about? The relatively high crosstalk? I have simulated a crosstalk of –40 dB and couldn't identify it.
.
Anomaly2
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Many subjectivists will always reject evidence because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization as this thread has already demonstrated.
xnor
Headphoneus Supremus
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Even though this is the science forum (and I truly respect that) it seems that we have two entirely separate camps here.
1- Those who believe that if a component doesn't measure well, how could it possibly sound good at all, and...
2- Those who say that they don't care how a component measures, and what's important to them is how the component
actually sounds to there ears.
Of course, I've been very clear that I am in the second camp, but I do respect both camps. One of the problems that I see
here, is that there are many components in the chain that attribute to the end result. What is the weakest link? If you have
a unit that measures poorly, goes through some less than stellar interconnects and an average headphone, then I think that
everyone can agree that the end result will probably not be favorable.
Take that same source, and put it through some decent wire, and a great pair of headphones, and the end result is going to be
totally different.
Using my JH-13's, straight out of the headphone jack of the 801 yields good results for me (using the lower gain game card).
Plugging in a B&W P5 which is known to have a serious high end roll of, is a recipe for disaster.
Anything can be the weakest link in the chain.
As we can see with most headphones, the source can render even the finest headphones less than optimal if the source is
pretty bad. I'm 50 and have some well trained years (that have taken years of training to detect even the smallest nuances)
and I can still hear up to 17K, and I find the 801's sounding excellent with a good headphone, or using the line out into a better
amp, still find the sound better than most DAPs that I've tried.
Multiple component synergy cannot be measured but it can be heard.
I enjoy looking at amp measurements (been doing so for many years via Stereophile and Headroom). But when I plunk down some $erious cash, it has to be what I hear and not what the published specs are.
When the 800's first came out, many members exhibited concern of the 600 ohm spike in the mid bass, and yet, it does not affect my listening pleasure with a darn good amp. Case in point.
We can go through this argument all day long, but I feel that the end must justify the means, and if you put on a pair of headphones from any source, and it sounds good, but doesn't measure well, I still will stick with what I hear. Others might hear the same exact setup differently and that's ok, which is why we have so many choices and swapping in and out various components in the chain to find "nirvana", but when it comes to the end of the day, what is really important if your are a serious music enthusiast, is what you hear with your ears. Bottom line.
Measurements can help to show us what the output of a component is, but it doesn't necessarily show us if something sounds good. Only your G-d given ears can make that decision.
All of this is IMHO, of course.
I'll bet you, that if that 801 was measured in 3 different environments, testing with three different measuring devices, then the results would not be the same, especially (in Tyll's case) where expensive scotch might make the results slightly different. J/K Tyll.
When you read a Road and Track magazine, no one achieves the same results in a real environment. You never et the claimed gas mileage or 0−60. Every motorcycle magazine has different dyno results on my ZX-14. Why is that?
So I take measurements with a grain of salt.
OK, I'm done. Agree or disagree. My ears and my heart is what I go by, and so far, it has worked for me.
People said the CAL-15 is the greatest CDP, but when I took it home, I yielded different results, and exchanged it for a Cary 306/200 which eventually got replace after a short time. Half the fun of a hobby like this, is the thrill of the chase, otherwise we would all be content, and wouldn't need Head-Fi.
If you took every component out there, I'm pretty sure that you could find something that you wouldn't like about it. Of course, this is my opinion, and cannot be backed up by scientific facts, alone.
1- Those who believe that if a component doesn't measure well, how could it possibly sound good at all, and...
2- Those who say that they don't care how a component measures, and what's important to them is how the component
actually sounds to there ears.
Of course, I've been very clear that I am in the second camp, but I do respect both camps. One of the problems that I see
here, is that there are many components in the chain that attribute to the end result. What is the weakest link? If you have
a unit that measures poorly, goes through some less than stellar interconnects and an average headphone, then I think that
everyone can agree that the end result will probably not be favorable.
Take that same source, and put it through some decent wire, and a great pair of headphones, and the end result is going to be
totally different.
Using my JH-13's, straight out of the headphone jack of the 801 yields good results for me (using the lower gain game card).
Plugging in a B&W P5 which is known to have a serious high end roll of, is a recipe for disaster.
Anything can be the weakest link in the chain.
As we can see with most headphones, the source can render even the finest headphones less than optimal if the source is
pretty bad. I'm 50 and have some well trained years (that have taken years of training to detect even the smallest nuances)
and I can still hear up to 17K, and I find the 801's sounding excellent with a good headphone, or using the line out into a better
amp, still find the sound better than most DAPs that I've tried.
Multiple component synergy cannot be measured but it can be heard.
I enjoy looking at amp measurements (been doing so for many years via Stereophile and Headroom). But when I plunk down some $erious cash, it has to be what I hear and not what the published specs are.
When the 800's first came out, many members exhibited concern of the 600 ohm spike in the mid bass, and yet, it does not affect my listening pleasure with a darn good amp. Case in point.
We can go through this argument all day long, but I feel that the end must justify the means, and if you put on a pair of headphones from any source, and it sounds good, but doesn't measure well, I still will stick with what I hear. Others might hear the same exact setup differently and that's ok, which is why we have so many choices and swapping in and out various components in the chain to find "nirvana", but when it comes to the end of the day, what is really important if your are a serious music enthusiast, is what you hear with your ears. Bottom line.
Measurements can help to show us what the output of a component is, but it doesn't necessarily show us if something sounds good. Only your G-d given ears can make that decision.
All of this is IMHO, of course.
I'll bet you, that if that 801 was measured in 3 different environments, testing with three different measuring devices, then the results would not be the same, especially (in Tyll's case) where expensive scotch might make the results slightly different. J/K Tyll.
When you read a Road and Track magazine, no one achieves the same results in a real environment. You never et the claimed gas mileage or 0−60. Every motorcycle magazine has different dyno results on my ZX-14. Why is that?
So I take measurements with a grain of salt.
OK, I'm done. Agree or disagree. My ears and my heart is what I go by, and so far, it has worked for me.
People said the CAL-15 is the greatest CDP, but when I took it home, I yielded different results, and exchanged it for a Cary 306/200 which eventually got replace after a short time. Half the fun of a hobby like this, is the thrill of the chase, otherwise we would all be content, and wouldn't need Head-Fi.
If you took every component out there, I'm pretty sure that you could find something that you wouldn't like about it. Of course, this is my opinion, and cannot be backed up by scientific facts, alone.
Danneq
Headphoneus Supremus
@immtbiker
I just quickly want to say that I'm in the same group as you, i.e. the "ear-trusting group", before I leave the Sound science forum and go to other forums here.
I went though the same thing in the Kenwood RMAA thread. I still do not understand how someone can dismiss something they have not used only based on some graphs. My opinion is that the quality of musical equipment from a consumer perspective should be decided with your ears. However I know that people might think differently, different strokes for different folks.
What I dislike is how test results and measurements are sometimes used in the Sound science forum to try to push your opinion on someone. Because that is what it does boil down to in the end: opinions about what constitutes "correct music appreciation".
I just quickly want to say that I'm in the same group as you, i.e. the "ear-trusting group", before I leave the Sound science forum and go to other forums here.
I went though the same thing in the Kenwood RMAA thread. I still do not understand how someone can dismiss something they have not used only based on some graphs. My opinion is that the quality of musical equipment from a consumer perspective should be decided with your ears. However I know that people might think differently, different strokes for different folks.
What I dislike is how test results and measurements are sometimes used in the Sound science forum to try to push your opinion on someone. Because that is what it does boil down to in the end: opinions about what constitutes "correct music appreciation".
Anomaly2
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It is decided with one’s ears—e.g., http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_plac.htm, http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf, http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf, http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm, http://www.theaudiocritic.com/, http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_peri.htm, etc.
xnor
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This is not only completely off-topic, I'm also in complete disagreement.
First of all, dividing people into camps is stupid - for a couple of reasons, and you know that. Secondly superficial knowledge is very dangerous. Thirdly, nobody cares what you go by, that's not what this thread is about. And of course there's always someone who thinks he need to analyze the situation, knowing everything better, summarizing and throwing random things together etc. and in the end this derails just about any thread.
If you don't know how to interpret the data or just cannot accept any kind of criticism then why are you here? To mess around I guess.
And I don't think anyone said it sounds like crap so stop thinking that way and open your mind for a more healthy discussion, but this just plain sucks.
I hope I'll see less of this crap in the future, thanks.
First of all, dividing people into camps is stupid - for a couple of reasons, and you know that. Secondly superficial knowledge is very dangerous. Thirdly, nobody cares what you go by, that's not what this thread is about. And of course there's always someone who thinks he need to analyze the situation, knowing everything better, summarizing and throwing random things together etc. and in the end this derails just about any thread.
If you don't know how to interpret the data or just cannot accept any kind of criticism then why are you here? To mess around I guess.
And I don't think anyone said it sounds like crap so stop thinking that way and open your mind for a more healthy discussion, but this just plain sucks.
I hope I'll see less of this crap in the future, thanks.
DameNinngen
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(sorry,my poor English.)
To examine the influence that output impedance would exert on the frequency response, I added the measurement example in Westone3.
I think that I cannot disregard the influence by output impedance of HM-801 with the model with a large ups and downs of impedance like multi BA driver.
To examine the influence that output impedance would exert on the frequency response, I added the measurement example in Westone3.
I think that I cannot disregard the influence by output impedance of HM-801 with the model with a large ups and downs of impedance like multi BA driver.
Danneq
Headphoneus Supremus
Directed at me or at immtbiker? He is a senior member compared to me, so it might be directed at me. Anyway, sorry I did not want to irritate you.
Well, it is not that I cannot interpret data nor accept criticism. I would have been happy if someone said that, in my case, the Kenwoods sounded like crap. Then they based their opinions on experience and that has been my point the whole time. An opinion is an opinion is an opinion and that is what it boils down to and something we cannot escape. We all have preferences and opinions.
Anyway, since our views are worlds apart, I will lurk in the sound science forum instead of contributing. I will write in forums that are more relevant to me, i.e. portable sources, headphone amps and headphones...
Quote:
Sonic 748i
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Danneq
Headphoneus Supremus
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Okay, then I know. We had our disagreements before so I wasn't sure...
I'll just go back to the portable source forum now.
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I see that trying to make a point in this thread is impossible without it being dissected in the wrong direction.
I've confirmed for myself that there is no point in further addressing any of this here, in the middle of a witch hunt and straw man tactics - "if you like the HM-801 then you must like colored sound", ignoring the question of what real effect the small treble roll-off has on other areas of sound quality other than the treble, saying it's "colored" which implies the timbre and tone or remainder of frequency response is off too, insulting others for their use of audiophile terms and minimizing the terms as trivial and inconsequential when they are useful to many readers, or changing a question about the roll off into a rant about output impedance and resistive loads. Great.
We're not even on the same page, and will never see eye to eye. So, I'll stop trying to convince you that the 801 is a good sounding player, and you can stop trying to convince me that you know what you are talking about.
I've confirmed for myself that there is no point in further addressing any of this here, in the middle of a witch hunt and straw man tactics - "if you like the HM-801 then you must like colored sound", ignoring the question of what real effect the small treble roll-off has on other areas of sound quality other than the treble, saying it's "colored" which implies the timbre and tone or remainder of frequency response is off too, insulting others for their use of audiophile terms and minimizing the terms as trivial and inconsequential when they are useful to many readers, or changing a question about the roll off into a rant about output impedance and resistive loads. Great.
We're not even on the same page, and will never see eye to eye. So, I'll stop trying to convince you that the 801 is a good sounding player, and you can stop trying to convince me that you know what you are talking about.
xnor
Headphoneus Supremus
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I was just thinking aloud.
I posted maybe 3 or 4 lines of information in this post, and that is about what the posts of others could be reduced to as well - the rest is, well see above.
My last reply wasn't targeted at you specifically, anyway, have a nice day.
PS: It's not my intention to stop anyone contributing around here.
I was just thinking aloud.
I posted maybe 3 or 4 lines of information in this post, and that is about what the posts of others could be reduced to as well - the rest is, well see above.
My last reply wasn't targeted at you specifically, anyway, have a nice day.
PS: It's not my intention to stop anyone contributing around here.
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