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Hifiman HM-801 RMAA Tests

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by dfkt, May 7, 2010.
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  1. Bullseye
    Answers in bold:
     
    Quote:
    I could go on and on. You opened a lot of holes with your argumentation. But as you said, it is a complete waste of time talking to you about it...
     
    No hard feelings [​IMG]
     
     
  2. Catharsis
    x2 bullseye.
     
    I guess some people are okay with wasting money on sub-par sound.
     
    What I'm hearing is "I acknowledge that my mp3 player has only about $20 worth of technology in it, and that I bought it for $800."  How moronic is that?!
     
     
  3. travisg
    I have owned almost every dap available and the hm801 just sounds better. I don't need a test to tell me that.
     
  4. Catharsis


    Quote:

    If it sounds better, it's because you like high frequency roll off or because you are suffering from the effects of expectation bias or psychoacoustics. You like coloured sound and expensive gear.
     
    I'm not pointing fingers at you travisg (not at all actually), but if anyone can specify the reason as to why the HM801 sounds better (aside from citing high frequency roll-off and other conclusions already obtained by RMAA measurement or audio science) I'll contact AES and you'll be a hero for your contributions to an entirely new scientific discovery.  
     
  5. Trogdor


    Quote:

    Just for the record...
     
    I didn't say RMAA was ridiculous.  You did.  You also said that ears are irrelevant to audio equipment.  Shweet.  Definitely continue to run with that.
     
    I have driven a Ferrari (not mine).  Honda Civics are way better for daily driving than Ferrari's.
     
    I have designed a CPU (parts of them anyway) in graduate school. 
     
    Fom Carthasis, I'm a moron because I bought a HM-801 (I even demoed it for other a month too and STILL thought it sounded better than a lot of higher end equipment, talk about total lunacy).
     
    You didn't even bother to read my argument (again RMAA is just one metric and it doesn't tell you anything about overall sound because if you do some research you'll find as MANY people have pointed out that flat freq response != good sound) or you just failed to understand it.   You also clearly haven't listened to the HM-801.  At least if you listened to it and said, yeah totally worth about $20 bucks...I'd have some respect for the last couple of posts.  I'm out.
     
  6. Bullseye
    Again, answers in bold:
     
    Quote:
     
     
    Oh, and a spoiler for you regarding the underlined sentence:
     
     
    They can be wrong.
     
    If you deny what measurements say, why can't you deny subjective opinions as well? From your perspective both could be wrong. Denying both is a good start point towards learning.
    Maybe you should do your own research (as I have done and others) and get the context of that. Not going to do the work for you. 
     
    So many holes left... [​IMG]
     
  7. electropop
    I'm interested in these other measurable variances. I know you can measure transient response. Does this have to do with pre-/post ringing? If so, are there measurements of a Sansa Clip (or iPod 160gb classic) vs. the HM801? This is quite easily measurable though as I've understood.
     
    Since I hear differences and/or improvements (yeah yeah, placebo and all that) between source-gear that basically measure the same, at least FR and impedance wise, what other little but substantial (to the sound, it seems) variables might there be as you (Jazz) pointed out?
     
  8. Achmedisdead


    Quote:

    So I take it you don't have any albums that are meant to be played back gapless?[​IMG]
     
  9. travisg
    Gapless playback is the last thing I worry about
     
  10. JaZZ Contributor


    I'm not an amp or electronics expert, but the info I have gathered from audio test magazines makes it look like the distortion pattern is of primary importance for the sonic characteristic of audio electronics – and not so much the distortion intensity, as long as it's decently low.
     
    Transient response is actually a function of frequency response, so an infinitely flat response means perfect transient response – but I wouldn't bet my life on this scenario under real-life conditions. I consider it very possible that complex signals can cause relevant (potentially audible) signal deviations among different amps with virtually flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.
     
    In my experience frequency response has an absolutely minor relevance when it comes to modern audio electronics (with a few exceptions; the HM-801 is one of them). The same can be said of harmonic distortion data gained with conventional measuring and evaluation methods. The perceived sonic differences have other causes.
    .
     
  11. Catharsis
    OK....wait.
     
    You're all aware that you're paying $800 to hear a $50 DAC and a $20 opamp right?  No matter which way you toss it, that's what you're hearing.  You can spin it any direction you like, but at the end of the day, that's what you're hearing.  High frequency roll-off, and mediocre measurements at best.  Why not go with a Sansa Clip again?
     
  12. Anaxilus


    Quote:

    I didn't want to interject but this false praise of the Clip+ as the be all and end all of SQ is ludicrous.  If you cannot tell w/ your ears that the Sansa products are above average at best I feel for you.  I'm glad you enjoy listening to music by looking at graphs.  When data shifts from being a tool to a maxim that governs your existence that's sad.  It's a shame you can't trust your ears to tell you what real life sounds like.  If you intend to claim some sort of moral high ground via mathematical purification of your soul, go ahead.  The rest of us don't need to follow you down the rabbit hole.  Always beware the man that claims he has nothing left to learn.  You should also feel free to claim that all high end audio is a rip off because it's not limited to just the 801.  The fact that so many 'knowledgeable' proponents of the Sansa line fail to decry the lack of depth, body or sonority of their signature is more proof to me of their fanatic blindness beyond what any graph can convey.  Catharsis and those like him are just extreme opposite examples of the type of dogmatic 801 fanboy they decry.  You want to claim people like 'colored' sound.  Go for it because life sounds far more colored than your precious Clip-.  I swear most of you neutrality experts have never pressed a key on a Piano in your life.

          
     
  13. Hero Kid
    Quote:

    And hearing it by reading graphs achieves something? [​IMG]
     
  14. Catharsis
    Err....okay.  If real life sounds like high-frequency roll-off, then yes, the 801 is more faithful to real life.  Is it more audibly transparent and faithful to the original recorded material (all those 1's an 0's that are ultimately converted to sound), no.  Do you understand anything about how sound reproduction works?
     
    I feel like I'm talking to pre-schoolers around here at times. If by dogma you mean "science" then yes - I'm guilty.  That nasty scientific method has really upset your fanatical belief system hasn't it.  Are you angry at the theory of evolution too?
     
    Quote:


     
    dfkt likes this.
  15. Currawong Contributor
    I think that everything being discussed has been flogged to death so severely, multiple times over, that it's time to put this thread to rest. 
     
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