[fishski13]

 
Quote:

(sorry,my poor English.)
To examine the influence that output impedance would exert on the frequency response, I added the measurement example in Westone3.
I think that I cannot disregard the influence by output impedance of HM-801 with the model with a large ups and downs of impedance like multi BA driver.

 
if accurate, puts a lot of things into perspective. 

 

[FrederikS|TPU]

Quote:

(sorry,my poor English.)
To examine the influence that output impedance would exert on the frequency response, I added the measurement example in Westone3.
I think that I cannot disregard the influence by output impedance of HM-801 with the model with a large ups and downs of impedance like multi BA driver.

I do not see the issue here. HiFiMAN has a designated amplifier module specifically tailored towards use with low impedance loads like IEMs and earbuds. It would be great if that module was measured instead of the old high gain standard card which was not made with in-ears in mind.
 

 

[Danneq]

@immtbiker - ironic or at loss for words?
 
I had to check in how this thread is going. It would be very amusing if Xnor's post was directed at me. I must be akin to a science and technology hating hermit in Xnor's eyes in that case. It is interesting to see yourself through others eyes...
Thinking out loud is a good way to show your opinions and prejudges, so now I understand your stance even more, Xnor. I see not evil as immtbiker writes (ironically?), just a slight superiority complex against people who lack the deep knowledge that one should have to be relevant. The only time I find superficial knowledge dangerous by the way, is if a professional only has superficial knowledge of his/her work. When it comes to hobbies deep knowledge of the workings of that particular hobby is not necessary (music listening is a hobby).
 
This thread could be reduced to 1 page if all redundant opinions and bickering was removed (of course my posts as well, as I am the first to admit).
It basically said:
A. Hifiman 801 did not do well in RMAA tests.
 
To go from here and say:
B. Hifiman sounds bad
 
is a bit too steep if someone has not heard the DAP in question. If someone who has heard it and likes it, does that mean that the person is hearing wrong? Or listening in the wrong way? Or simply cannot appreciate music correctly?
I cannot see any definite connection between a certain piece of musical equipment doing good or bad in tests and how it is perceived and enjoyed by people who listen to it.
 
If someone can link to any article or source where a definite connection between these two things is shown I will be grateful.
 
PS. I like how you put italics on contributing. Done in a very subtle and at the same time condescending way. Another case of different definitions of a word, btw...

 

[Anomaly2]

Quote:

I cannot see any definite connection between a certain piece of musical equipment doing good or bad in tests and how it is perceived and enjoyed by people who listen to it.
 
If someone can link to any article or source where a definite connection between these two things is shown I will be grateful.

Please see post 697 in this thread.

 

[xnor]

TOO LONG, DID NOT READ.
 
 
 
Doesn't superiority complex refer to a mere feeling of being superior? In that case your psychoanalysis must be wrong!
 
(btw, that italic text thingy is called emphasis)
 
 
Sorry.

 

[Danneq]

 
Quote:

TOO LONG, DID NOT READ.
 
Doesn't superiority complex refer to a mere feeling of being superior? In that case your psychoanalysis must be wrong!
 
(btw, that italic text thingy is called emphasis)
 
 
Sorry.

 
Haha! That was funny. 

Well, this is pretty pointless discussion, but I did notice that this thread spun out of control and in the end is was about opinions and preferences. Some did not justify their opinions and just said that they enjoy the Hifiman. Some used test results as a means to justify their opinions.
 
I understood well that the italics were used to suggest that some people "contribute" (i.e. not really) and some people contribute (i.e. they do). As a thread needs posts to grow, I simply see all posts helping the thread grow as contributing to it. If they help to bring meaning to the thread is another question...
 
Anyway, as I do not bring anything to the case in question in this thread I will try my best to keep away (no matter how much I enjoy verbal jousting). I hope more people had that self criticism...

 

[Shike]

Quote:

I see that trying to make a point in this thread is impossible without it being dissected in the wrong direction.  
 
The only thing that's wrong about it is that you don't like it.  Others here are just fine with how your post has been dissected.
 
I've confirmed for myself that there is no point in further addressing any of this here, in the middle of a witch hunt and straw man tactics - "if you like the HM-801 then you must like colored sound", ignoring the question of what real effect the small treble roll-off has on other areas of sound quality other than the treble, saying it's "colored" which implies the timbre and tone or remainder of frequency response is off too,
 
that's because the whole thing can be off thanks to the high output impedance too.  Regardless, any deviation from a straight signal is a form of coloration - there's just varying degrees.
 
insulting others for their use of audiophile terms and minimizing the terms as trivial and inconsequential when they are useful to many readers, or changing a question about the roll off into a rant about output impedance and resistive loads.  Great.  
 
Most audiophile terms are so loosely defined and tossed around that they offer no real relation to anything besides what one person listening attributes it too.  As for the rant about output impedance - it's important.  A resistive headphones (Grado for example) won't change nearly as much as one with large impedance changes (HD600, 650, etc).  The source may have a -1dB roll off one second then -7dB the next.
 
If you can't understand why this is important than it is not I you should be taking this out on, rather yourself.
 
We're not even on the same page, and will never see eye to eye.  So, I'll stop trying to convince you that the 801 is a good sounding player, and you can stop trying to convince me that you know what you are talking about.
 
Failed passive aggressive swing.  Have a nice day.

Responses in bold.

 

[electropop]

Placebo is no worse or different than making a conclusion of how the player conveys a musical signal, based on graphs. While I appreciate and concur that the music must be heard accurately and realistically (I like the K601s, by the way, mainly because they play pitches accurately, not because they're "flat"), I have to say that the source plays a significant part in this and NOT just because the FR must be flat and "colorless".
 
Even if I might be accused from going off topic, I have to say that you must have not made proper comparisons between "uncolored" digital sources to claim that all differences are placebo. A realistic, though in this case a tad nihilistic, approach is always for the better of things. For where would this world go, if we weren't rational? Regardless, I can hear the advantage with better, non snake-oil, source design. (Don't ask me about the technical aspects of the design, heh)
Has anyone heard or got accustomed with Linn DS equipment? I think they're quite wild.
 
Just to put in the quotes from dfkt I missed:
"The s-flo is the same (according to Shigzeo, whom I trust). There is no magical player that sounds "better" than the next one. I'm sick and tired of trying out all that nonsense, like the AMP3, Hifiman, etc - when a $30 Sansa Clip gives the same or better audio quality. The s-flo is yet another nonsense product with horrible firmware and usability, with some advertising claims about "better" sound quality that's simply can't be true. People, don't be gullible fools."
 
To continue my point, I think it's pretty clear that he let the measurements cloud his judgments (as high $$$ does with placebo). I didn't see which IEMs he tested the player with. Is it mentioned here on this thread? I'm curious, since I didn't hear an improvement using my RE0s, but a clear one with all of my full-sized cans. Edit: All low impedance, though.
 
Also, claiming that "there is no magical player that sounds "better" than the next one" renders all source and amplifiers identical, which is rather interesting again..
 
This is my pathetic attempt of finding the root of this conversation. It's baffling to me. And sorry if my post comes on as rude. English is not my native language either... Edit: I'm not irritated by the facts and not claiming that the roll off isn't audible and thus not protecting nothing more than the "fact", heh, that not all source equipments with same measurements sound the same, as Jazz said.
 
This post was pointed towards Shike, who made me a bit jumpy with his post. To annoy you further with this subjective mumbo jumbo, I'd like to ask you a quick thing: How do you yourself listen to music? Do you mainly pay attention to FR, melodies, hearing instruments as they should be, transients or pitch accuracy? And what kind of music do you listen to as well? I think this is important information when making such statements as "placebo" and "all flat sources with good transients are equal" (not a direct quote from you, but my abbreviation of what I've understood, correct me if I'm completely at bay).
 
Thank you and sorry

 

[xnor]

Quote:

To continue my point, I think it's pretty clear that he let the measurements cloud his judgments

Look, he's done measurements. A lot of them. And his measurements are comparable, as are the products' prices (and advertised performance).
 
He's actually trying to help people. But looking at threads like this I'm not surprised that he's annoyed.

 

[electropop]

My point stands. AND I actually said that I respect his work, just that I don't trust his ears. And yes, he helps to keep things in perspective. Cost-performance wise though, have you seen a more versatile player, that functions as a dac, has an integrated amplifier capable of driving more difficult cans as well AND sound better?
 
Of course the player isn't for everyone and on the road, who cares about minute differences in sound quality? Probably permille of DAP owners..
 
I bet that if I played a few setups (blind test) for a number of people with different digital sources, they couldn't tell how they measured (the digital source). They could distinguish differences (probably hear a treble roll off that was or not due to an impedance issue), sure, and pick out a favorite as well. But the differences would probably be heard by listening to music, preferably with live instruments, and see which sounds "most real". Subjective, yes, but one would be hard pressed on saying how each set measured, based on hearing evaluation.
Point being, measurements don't tell you how a system sounds holistically, period.
 
I like Jazz's objective approach. He wouldn't buy the player due to its roll-off and I have nothing against that or the measurements per se. I played 600usd for the player (pre-order) and don't think that's too much for what I'm getting. 800usd would have been maybe.. As said many times, each makes his or her own decision (and a financial assessment) and I'm sure you can hear the advantage over cheaper DAPs with low impedance, bit better full sized cans. (Why not with the higher end IEMs, at least with the GAME module?)
 
If one doesn't "hear the difference" and only uses porta pros or cheaper IEMs on the go, he definitely shouldn't invest. If you think you have enough money to try it out and are interested in a good quality (at least sound wise) product that performs well with better headphones, do it!
 
Here's for a fail at trying to bring the debate to an end, yet again, haha.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

If one doesn't "hear the difference" and only uses porta pros or cheaper IEMs on the go, he definitely shouldn't invest. If you think you have enough money to try it out and are interested in a good quality (at least sound wise) product that performs well with better headphones, do it!
 
Here's for a fail at trying to bring the debate to an end, yet again, haha.

What of those that hear a difference, but don't like the adverse effect to accurate reproduction?  How do you define that it is "good quality - sound wise") meaning "better than dap x, y, or z", empirically without subjective taste (possible FR inconsistencies, etc)?
 
The most one can say about the 801 is that they like it more or enjoy it.  "Better in SQ" requires an empirical level of measurement, as SQ could infer quality of reproduction of the original signal, at least IMO.
 
PS:
 
 
 
Quote:

I'm sure you can hear the advantage over cheaper DAPs with low impedance, bit better full sized cans.

 
What advantage, empirically?  If we're going to argue that everyone has different perception of sound (in your words " I can't trust his hearing")  then we need some measurable sign of improvement of it over other players for this claim to be factual.
 
What you hear as an improvement may in fact be contrary to the accurate reproduction of a signal.  Just because it sounds better to you does not mean it will be universally accepted as an advantage for music reproduction.  I believe I covered this in my PM reply, but felt it needed to be stated here.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

 Cost-performance wise 

It doesn't have a chance in my book.
 
Quote:

who cares about minute differences in sound quality

We do. And those who spend lots of money usually do too, else they wouldn't spend lots of money in the first place.
 
Quote:

I bet that if I played a few setups (blind test) for a number of people with different digital sources, they couldn't tell how they measured (the digital source). They could distinguish differences (probably hear a treble roll off that was or not due to an impedance issue), sure, and pick out a favorite as well. 

If they hear a treble roll-off and the measurements show this (objectively, accurately), either because of a real roll-off or impedance mismatch, then I don't understand your reasoning here.
 
 
Quote:

As said many times, each makes his or her own decision (and a financial assessment) and I'm sure you can hear the advantage over cheaper DAPs with low impedance, bit better full sized cans. (Why not with the higher end IEMs, at least with the GAME module?)

Everyone who buys something wants to see advantages. Or the other way around.
Q: And what is the advantage you're talking about that is worth the additional expense over more reasonably priced DAPs? Higher output power/volume?
 
 
Quote:

If you think you have enough money to try it out and are interested in a good quality (at least sound wise) product that performs well with better headphones, do it!

dfkt tried it out:
"At least the $800 Hifiman sounds like an average MP3 player, while the $300 AMP3 sounds just bad (I'm talking about my ears, not measurements)."

"[...] they could, you know, just use a $30 Sansa Clip, get better frequency response, better battery life, gapless, a usable UI, etc, etc - and if they really need to drive their HD650 on the go, they could add a better amp than the Hifiman's (like the Arrow or Pico) to the Clip and still only pay a third the price of that thing."
 
 
 
And this must be a joke or something, but the specifications say the amp module goes up to 60 kHz @ -1 dB.
 
 
 
edit: btw, he also posted audio test files from different DAPs for comparison. listen and compare them for yourself... (anyone with decent equipment can do this, and will probably be surprised)

 

[electropop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It doesn't have a chance in my book.
 
Have you tried it, used it as a source?
 
We do. And those who spend lots of money usually do too, else they wouldn't spend lots of money in the first place.
 
Please quote me completely, I did restrict it to "portably". And "minute" means source wise, as huge differences can't be expected.
 
Everyone who buys something wants to see advantages. Or the other way around.
Q: And what is the advantage you're talking about that is worth the additional expense over more reasonably priced DAPs? Higher output power/volume?
 
Great synergy with the Shure 840s, which I ain't quite fond of, but quite on the contrary, the treble had more extension and better transients for starters. Bass tightened up and I could hear the pitches of those bass notes, not just getting rid of the distortion around the instrument. Brass instruments sounding more vivid. I'm not sure if this is due to more accurate pitches or transient response producing "air" around the instruments.
Quite interestingly though, I could be a happy camper with my K272s using an ipod classic 160gb. They don't favor the 801 at all. While I could not hear an high frequency drop with the phones, I noticed slight excessive warmness, which might be slight distortion.. Someone can translate this to scientific terms. It did sound more inaccurate though, as Shike would put it.
Of course the 801 had more power reserves though..
Now whether this is an amplifier issue or not, I can't say. Then as you say, a portable amp with good synergy added to a Clip might do the trick. I should probably do some source testing having both the Classic and 801 feed the rest of my amps and try to hear the results, since that's the point of the player. I'll try to avoid any hifi mumbo jumbo though. But it restricts to that, since I'm not very technically acknowledged.. I'm sure I can't come up with anything empirical with numbers and graphs, but I just got my ear waxes removed a while back. Mmm, yummy.
But Hifiman should probably warn buyers to match headphones accordingly
 
dfkt tried it out:
"At least the $800 Hifiman sounds like an average MP3 player, while the $300 AMP3 sounds just bad (I'm talking about my ears, not measurements)."
 
It still hasn't been mentioned which headphones/buds he was using.
 
 
And this must be a joke or something, but the specifications say the amp module goes up to 60 kHz @ -1 dB.
 
Well that is ridiculous.

I like this quoting style. Thanks Shike
Responses in bold.
 

 

[electropop]

Let me go find that test dfkt made.. I haven't tried it but became interested. Though I don't have a desktop dac at the moment, at least one that's resolving enough.

 

[xnor]

Check the link in the OPs thread. Should be within the first 3 pages.