[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Your logic is flawed, in that you suggest that EQ in the headphone is fine, while EQ in the source or amp is sacrilege - this is an odd statement indeed. 

A deliberate choice to roll off the frequency at the hardware level does not qualify as EQ'ing.

 

[Galatian]

What to say? At first I was really shocked that my recent investment is supposed to be not such a good investment after all. But I just listened to it again and I can definitely say that it sounds much better then my iPod Classic or iPhone 3GS.
I do have to thank everybody participating in this discussion though, as it made me research a few things and I would like to share those results and questions that arose.
As I can see the frequency response is not flat, but the roll-off seems to be not so obvious until 10 kHz. I listen to a lot of Metal music and I could not think of one instrument that reaches that high anyway (other than subharmonics maybe). Aren't those frequencies cut off by mp3 encoding anway? To me it seems like we are not taking into account how the Hifiman actually sounds. I mean the graph is all nice and it is obviously not a flat frequency response but so what? Do you actually listen to music at those frequencies? I don't think I do, so saying the Hifiman is bad just because it has a roll-off in the high frequencies seems to be just as wrong as saying that all those test mean nothing. I think both parties are trying too much here to prove their point, but I say I rather enjoy my music on my Hifiman (and that is while it is under the normal return policy), because I like the sound even if or maybe because it has a roll-off.
 
BTW: It would be nice to see such a test on cables especially those highly glorified TWag silver wires!

 

[midoo1990]

hmm,i will play .I Listened to the 4 test tracks and i have to say the difference is small but two tracks sounded better to my ears than the other two and the best one has a slight edge above the other three.now i dont know what tracks belong to whcih player because i havent heard the hifiman or the cowon but here are the results:
track 2
track 3
track 4
track 1
 
track 1 is the worst one,but keep in mind that the differences are small that i wont bother to buy $800 or $400 dap,i would buy the cheapest of the pack because the difference is so small that it is definetly definetly not worth it.
EDIT:i would make a guess
track 2(original flac)
track 3(clip+)
track 4(hifiman)
track 1(cowon)

 

[dfkt]

Midoo1990, to avoid misunderstandings, could you post which player you think is which number?

 

[midoo1990]

^^i edited my post

 

[Galatian]

 
Quote:

Here's a little test for everyone interested.

I've put a piece of music in FLAC on three different players and recorded the players' headphone outputs with Sound Forge 8.0, with a standard 16 Ohm load attached. My sound card is an Echo AudioFire, it's more precise and sensitive than these MP3 players, so the recording quality should be sufficient. Well, everyone can decide that for themselves when they listen to the tracks. For that reason I've also included the original file that I ripped directly from the CD in this test, to make it more conclusive. The only modification I did to the files was normalizing them to the same level (matching the player with the lowest recorded output).

The audio track was ripped from CD by me, using EAC in secure mode, Test&Copy, and AccurateRip. It's a 100% perfect rip.

So here are the four candidates, with a little description on what RMAA shows about those players - but of course you better listen for yourself instead of trusting graphs. Specs like SNR, THD, IMD don't really matter for these players, the differences should be inaudible and negligible.
 

1. Hifiman HM-801: average sound quality, rolled off treble, mediocre channel separation
2. Cowon V5: average sound quality, rolled off bass, better channel separation
3. Sansa Clip+: average sound quality, linear frequency response, mediocre channel separation
4. Original FLAC: exactly what is to be heard on the original CD

Can you hear the differences? Also, always keep in mind that one of the four tracks is the original.

Here you can download the test tracks. In that folder is also a password protected RAR archive with the solution key to the files. I will give out the password in a few days, after some people have listened to the files and posted their results.

I recommend Foobar2000's ABX plugin for a comfortable way to test these tracks. But of course any other method works as well. Happy listening!

Seriously I doubt that a lot of persons will participate and even if they do you know what they will claim...
But since you are already took your time to do this: I have read someone checking out cables and he did this with using a different phase or something for one of the cables so that both sounds would annihilate when played together. All the sound you could still hear was from the difference between cables. So why don't you do something similar and we can really hear what the difference in a real world example is? Sorry for the bad description of the process but I guess you know what I'm talking about

 

[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by dfkt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 About the headphone out - you did listen to the original, so you know what it should sound like, how different it is to the recorded tracks.

What I mean is: making them drive headphones instead of line inputs could possibly show larger differences. After all my iAudio 7 and my Clip+ sound significantly different when heard through earphones – although not clearly in favor of one or the other. (I haven't tested them with your recording method.)
 
Another point: Some time ago I have recorded music to my computer (by means of an E-MU 1212M) with two different interconnect cables (Zu Gede and Silver Dragon). With their inteded use between DAC and headphone amp they make a passably audible difference. After digitization the difference had disappeared, whatever the reason. So it's possible that digitizing a signal may even existing sonic differences. Just a consideration. – I don't know the Cowon V5, but I don't hear the sonic difference between the iAudio 7 and the Clip+ reflected in your samples.

 

[dfkt]

Galatian: What you mean is the delta of two or more signals. That would be "scientific", and wouldn't tell any more than the RMAA tests already did.
 
With those ABX audio files I want to give people the chance to listen to music - since MP3 players are all about music, and tests don't mean anything to some people, as clearly seen. If you hear the difference between the tracks after my verbal description of the RMAA results, or if you don't hear anything is up to you. You make the results, not me. And if anything sound better or worse to you is also up to you, not me.

 

[Galatian]

Galatian: What you mean is the delta of two or more signals. That would be "scientific", and wouldn't tell any more than the RMAA tests already did.
 
With those ABX audio files I want to give people the chance to listen to music - since MP3 players are all about music, and tests don't mean anything to some people, as clearly seen. If you hear the difference between the tracks after my verbal description of the RMAA results, or if you don't hear anything is up to you. You make the results, not me. And if anything sound better or worse to you is also up to you, not me.

Oh actually my test would be the best in terms for musicality because you would only hear the difference between two players. So this is actually less scientific and more reality related than you might think IMO because I bet you that even though you will propbably hear the roll-off it will only be on hissing sounds that I would really not miss anyway. If the product should be called hifi is a completely different story though, I'm merely just not satisfied with this easy equation roll-off = bad sq = bad product.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

I'm merely just not satisfied with this easy equation roll-off = bad sq = bad product.

And that is fair. But by the same token, I still cannot see how such a severe roll-off could be considered even remotely hi-fi. If that is the only way to make a particular chip sound good, then we should start looking for better chips.
 
In a nutshell, there is no reason why we shouldn't demand that a product be both technically excellent and sound good.

 

[super_fied]

wow, then i suppose this $5500 USD CDP is really over priced, given that it uses such "outdated" chips, which happens to be just what the Hifiman uses....
 
 
I just saved some money!
 
http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/cd-player-dac/cd-player/cd-2.html

 

[Beefy]

 
Quote:

wow, then i suppose this $5500 USD CDP is really over priced, given that it uses such "outdated" chips, which happens to be just what the Hifiman uses....
 
 
I just saved some money!
 
http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/cd-player-dac/cd-player/cd-2.html

Ah, so you're saying that more expensive equals better?
 
Yes, this is a MUCH more justified position to hold, versus demanding technical excellence.

 

[dfkt]

Galatian: If you can, please create the deltas of the four files. I couldn't get it to delta properly, because of the minuscule differences in playback speed between the players compared to the original file, which create a flanging effect rather than a proper delta. The tracks would have to be meticulously trimmed and time-stretched with a good algorithm to produce a valid delta. I just don't have the tools... or the patience.
 
Not to mention the Hifiman inverts the phase of the playback signal 180° compared to the original and the other players (which of course is easily fixed).

 

[fidele-caput]

dfkt I'll take a stab if I may:
 
1. Cowon V5
2. Clip+ ?
3. HM-801
4. FLAC ?
 
NB: It's important to be honest to yourself, and more so to be grateful with what you have, but it is most important be good to each other. Otherwise, how can you be happy?

 

[High_Q]

Quote:

wow, then i suppose this $5500 USD CDP is really over priced, given that it uses such "outdated" chips, which happens to be just what the Hifiman uses....
 
 
I just saved some money!
 
http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/cd-player-dac/cd-player/cd-2.html

You should try to use your reasoning skills.  Backing up something because of its price is meaningless.  We can be here all day and talk about what we like and dislike, but data still stands at the end until someone can make a reasonable argument to counter it.  People here shouldn't be threatened by data, people use data all the time to build electronics.  Engineers have instruments to measure data objectively which helps them design the circuitry.  I could sell you a $1000 banana and tell you its the most healthy banana.