[StanD]

   
"Significant" is a subjective term, but I agree with your general premise.  We mad modders just like to tweak things.  As much as I've modded my HE-500s and HE-560s, I wouldn't say the sound has changed significantly, but it has been tweaked nicely.  I'd never claim said tweaks are for everyone, or even worth the effort.  That's why I love reversible mods.

You are both reasonable and wise. 

 Despite your unfair labor practices reagarding primates.

 

[ThurstonX]

You are both reasonable and wise. 

 Despite your unfair labor practices reagarding primates.

 
My wife would tell you it's my Fire Horse/Libra nature, but then she's a double Aquarius and is loyal to a fault.  The Myers-Briggs test, OTOH, indicates that I'm a Mastermind 

 

[StanD]

 

 
My wife would tell you it's my Fire Horse/Libra nature, but then she's a double Aquarius and is loyal to a fault.  The Myers-Briggs test, OTOH, indicates that I'm a Mastermind 

And a madman 

 

[ThurstonX]

  And a madman 

 
"I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw."

 

[StanD]

   
"I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw."

 
This guy was on my front lawn a few weeks ago and beat the crap out of a finch that survived and comes to my window every day.
 

 

[ThurstonX]

 
This guy was on my front lawn a few weeks ago and beat the crap out of a finch that survived and comes to my window every day.
 
 

Spoiler: Hawk photo

 

 
Nice photo.  It's great to have hawks flyin' around the 'hood, isn't it.  I count on them to keep the mole and chipmunk population down.  I'd be hiring pros to do the job, were it not for the real badasses of the bird world.
 
OK, enough off-topic nonsense here.  Sorry folks.

 

[Bill-P]

I thought you found the differences significant?

 
Yeah, subjectively, they are. I'd just like to have some numbers to show people that I'm not just going crazy.
 

 

  I find it difficult to accept that someone with little experience in acoustiic design or headphone design can come along and make significant and positive changes yet the people at HifiMan or any other substantial outfit are unable to get it right despiite having years of experience and a proven track record. I'm certain that some changes can be made that alter the sound that some people may like and others may not. Some people have been doing this for a while and can do some positive tweaks. Experience takes time with both success as well as failure. I think if a pair of headphones is bad enough to require significant change, I shouldn't buy them. Who thinks that the 560's need significant improvements? Maybe some small tweaks that fit particular individuals' tastes. These are not bad headphones.

 
I'm 100% sure that Fang and co. are 200% capable of making a headphone that blows my mind.
 
The thing is... I think they had to cut back a little and introduced a more simplistic approach in terms of acoustical design for their products. That's because such an approach would be easier to reproduce reliably at a manufacturing facility, and furthermore, it would make production faster, and also minimize cost of labor, materials, etc... Hifiman is still a business after all, and they need to think about the cost of production for the HE-560 in order to turn a good profit... all so that they can keep the company afloat and keep churning out good products for us.
 
So their priority really isn't only sound quality IMO, and that would influence the kind of acoustical design they can do.
 
On the other hand, us modders are mainly concerned with sound quality (and maybe aesthetic), and we aren't necessarily as cost-constrained as Hifiman, so we are free to explore more meticulous details than Hifiman included in their stock products. But like you said, and I fully agree, a change is not always necessarily a good one. That's why it's still an exploration and not necessarily an improvement, and I would not dare to claim otherwise.
 
To me, though, the modded headphone fits my preference better, and so... for me, it is "better", but that's really not saying much. So the measurements I'm waiting on is merely to quantify the changes and let potential modders decide if they would like to go in the same direction. Also as a sanity check to see if what I'm hearing subjectively can be measured. It's not necessarily to say "I'm better than Hifiman" because... well, I think that's absurd. I simply have more free time (and less knowledge) than their engineers. 

 

 

[Wildcatsare1]

OK, quick bite on some of the OT info, then back on topic...really 

.
 
OK, @StanD great picture, when I lived in Charlotte I had a juvenile red-tailed Hawk who used to let me hand feed him (Thurston, a hawk, not a  juvenile  red head!)
 
@ThurstonX
What was your Myers-Briggs? I am an ENTJ.
 
OK, 560's, loving them with the Lyr 2, and my Alpha Dogs may be pushed out of the #2 slot by the Grado PS500e's. Know the Grados are controversial, but my goodness, what clarity, detail, just plain rightness and so easy to drive, straight from the iPhone/MacBook Pro, iFi iDSD Nano, or full blown magic with the Lyr 2. 
 
Cheers 

 

[ThurstonX]

  OK, quick bite on some of the OT info, then back on topic...really 

.
 
OK, @StanD great picture, when I lived in Charlotte I had a juvenile red-tailed Hawk who used to let me hand feed him (Thurston, a hawk, not a  juvenile  red head!)
 
@ThurstonX
What was your Myers-Briggs? I am an ENTJ.
 
OK, 560's, loving them with the Lyr 2, and my Alpha Dogs may be pushed out of the #2 slot by the Grado PS500e's. Know the Grados are controversial, but my goodness, what clarity, detail, just plain rightness and so easy to drive, straight from the iPhone/MacBook Pro, iFi iDSD Nano, or full blown magic with the Lyr 2. 
 
Cheers 

 
"The Mastermind Rational is one of the 16 role variants of the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, a self-assessed personality questionnaire designed to help people better understand themselves. David Keirsey originally described the Mastermind role variant; however, a brief summary of the personality types described by Isabel Myers contributed to its development. Masterminds correlate primarily with the Myers-Briggs type INTJ.^[1] They make up about 1% of the population.^[2]"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_%28role_variant%29
 
 
Sorry, all you 99%ers 

 

---

 
It's interesting to listen to lesser cans for a while (e.g., Fidelio X2s, which are great at their price), and then go back to the HE-560s.  The stage opens up like the curtain in a movie theater as the feature begins, details pop out all over the place, bass tightens up and goes deeper, all with less bloom... yada yada yada.  While listening to the X2s or whatever, I begin to wonder why I paid so much for the HE-560s, and then I'm reminded why, to me, they're worth it.

 

[StanD]

   
Yeah, subjectively, they are. I'd just like to have some numbers to show people that I'm not just going crazy.
 

 
 
I'm 100% sure that Fang and co. are 200% capable of making a headphone that blows my mind.
 
The thing is... I think they had to cut back a little and introduced a more simplistic approach in terms of acoustical design for their products. That's because such an approach would be easier to reproduce reliably at a manufacturing facility, and furthermore, it would make production faster, and also minimize cost of labor, materials, etc... Hifiman is still a business after all, and they need to think about the cost of production for the HE-560 in order to turn a good profit... all so that they can keep the company afloat and keep churning out good products for us.
 
So their priority really isn't only sound quality IMO, and that would influence the kind of acoustical design they can do.
 
On the other hand, us modders are mainly concerned with sound quality (and maybe aesthetic), and we aren't necessarily as cost-constrained as Hifiman, so we are free to explore more meticulous details than Hifiman included in their stock products. But like you said, and I fully agree, a change is not always necessarily a good one. That's why it's still an exploration and not necessarily an improvement, and I would not dare to claim otherwise.
 
To me, though, the modded headphone fits my preference better, and so... for me, it is "better", but that's really not saying much. So the measurements I'm waiting on is merely to quantify the changes and let potential modders decide if they would like to go in the same direction. Also as a sanity check to see if what I'm hearing subjectively can be measured. It's not necessarily to say "I'm better than Hifiman" because... well, I think that's absurd. I simply have more free time (and less knowledge) than their engineers. 

 

Just be careful of what you promise. Good luck.

 

[StanD]

  OK, quick bite on some of the OT info, then back on topic...really 

.
 
OK, @StanD great picture, when I lived in Charlotte I had a juvenile red-tailed Hawk who used to let me hand feed him (Thurston, a hawk, not a  juvenile  red head!)
 
Cheers 

You should see the finch, he'll never wear headphones again and is now blind in one eye.
So did you take a chainsaw and mod your 560's or not? Or maybe just a little?

 

[amigomatt]

 

  Mostly agree, but if something is audible to the point where somebody feels the difference is very pronounced, it most certainly should be measureable or else we need to seriously entertain the difference being influenced by expectation. While I get it that there is individual difference in hearing acuity, but hearing deficiency aside, most people in the same age will have very similar hearing. I'm not at all trying to be challenging (I'm a fan of Bill-P as he seems to really love and understand audio science), but I was just a little surprised as Bill-P seemed to feel very strongly that the mods made significant differences.

I find it difficult to accept that someone with little experience in acoustiic design or headphone design can come along and make significant and positive changes yet the people at HifiMan or any other substantial outfit are unable to get it right despiite having years of experience and a proven track record. I'm certain that some changes can be made that alter the sound that some people may like and others may not. Some people have been doing this for a while and can do some positive tweaks. Experience takes time with both success as well as failure. I think if a pair of headphones is bad enough to require significant change, I shouldn't buy them. Who thinks that the 560's need significant improvements? Maybe some small tweaks that fit particular individuals' tastes. These are not bad headphones.

Well, HifiMan certainly listened to 'Jerg' and his pad modding.  Jerg most definitely made HifiMan's headphones sound better than they could and their Focus pads are a direct result of Jerg's research and development.

 

[amigomatt]

 

  OK, quick bite on some of the OT info, then back on topic...really 

.
 
OK, @StanD great picture, when I lived in Charlotte I had a juvenile red-tailed Hawk who used to let me hand feed him (Thurston, a hawk, not a  juvenile  red head!)
 
@ThurstonX
What was your Myers-Briggs? I am an ENTJ.
 
OK, 560's, loving them with the Lyr 2, and my Alpha Dogs may be pushed out of the #2 slot by the Grado PS500e's. Know the Grados are controversial, but my goodness, what clarity, detail, just plain rightness and so easy to drive, straight from the iPhone/MacBook Pro, iFi iDSD Nano, or full blown magic with the Lyr 2. 
 
Cheers 

 
"The Mastermind Rational is one of the 16 role variants of the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, a self-assessed personality questionnaire designed to help people better understand themselves. David Keirsey originally described the Mastermind role variant; however, a brief summary of the personality types described by Isabel Myers contributed to its development. Masterminds correlate primarily with the Myers-Briggs type INTJ.^[1] They make up about 1% of the population.^[2]"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_%28role_variant%29
 
 
Sorry, all you 99%ers 

 

---

 
It's interesting to listen to lesser cans for a while (e.g., Fidelio X2s, which are great at their price), and then go back to the HE-560s.  The stage opens up like the curtain in a movie theater as the feature begins, details pop out all over the place, bass tightens up and goes deeper, all with less bloom... yada yada yada.  While listening to the X2s or whatever, I begin to wonder why I paid so much for the HE-560s, and then I'm reminded why, to me, they're worth it.

...yet it's also a nice feeling that buying the HE560 didn't immediately render all my other phones redundant.  I can still fully enjoy my HD598/HP50/MA900/HE400 even after having my ears and heart treated so well by the 560s..

 

[ThurstonX]

  ...yet it's also a nice feeling that buying the HE560 didn't immediately render all my other phones redundant.  I can still fully enjoy my HD598/HP50/MA900/HE400 even after having my ears and heart treated so well by the 560s..

 
Yep, that too 

 

[StanD]

  Well, HifiMan certainly listened to 'Jerg' and his pad modding.  Jerg most definitely made HifiMan's headphones sound better than they could and their Focus pads are a direct result of Jerg's research and development.

Jerg has obviously spent a great deal of time and energy into this. He also has a talent for this, not everyone does. I believe that even Jerg has mentioned that mods have limits.