[money4me247]

the Bravo Ocean i had one time owned is far better for exemple with the akg 701 than the Schiit magni amp... I heared the two and the owner of the akg with me was baffled by the pairing  of the  ocean and the 701, me too....    he purchased the Ocean bravo and sold schiit Magni the day after this experience...I trust my ears and the electrical synergy of the gear.... The ember i own now is far  better with the Akg and the He 400  than the Bravo ocean... best regards

 

I had the Bravo V3, and it was a great amp for the price point. If you are on a budget, Bravo products are solid performance for their price tag. I think the generally 'warmer' tube sound would pair better for the brighter treble-focused q701, so your statement does make sense.
 

Sound stage presentation is interdependent, it must be in the recording and you must have a transducer that can recreate/present the sound stage.

I actually would imagine that sound stage relates more to the physical driver enclosure rather than "the transducer's ability to recreate sound stage." Sound stage is the side-effect of differing loudness of notes that gives us the illusion of distance. The differences in volume of notes is already inherently present in the source and all headphones are very capable of playing back at different volumes. I believe that physical earcup design is what causes slight variations in sound wave reflections that gives us the illusion of differing sound stage. I do not believe there is any special properties of the transducer that directly relates to sound stage.
 

Stan-D, it is not that hard to build a functioning amplifier, where it becomes art, is creating one that plays music beautifully. HiFiManRookie is correct, the O2 is the perfect example of any fool being able to create an amplifier that functions and has good measurements. It takes an artist, skilled at design to build an amplifier that conveys the "soul", "gestalt" of a musical event.

Good measurements are important. I imagine all electrical engineers who build amplifiers would tend to agree that it is more a science than an art. If you believe that conveying the 'soul' of a musical event means that the source is reproduced accurately with minimal distortion/coloration, then designing a good amplifier requires good science and measurements. If you think that convey the 'soul' of the music equals which amplifier gives you the most personal pleasure, that is really dependent on the listener... the amplifier design doesn't really matter.
 

  And yet the same guys that produce good or great amps use the engineering and measurements that you seem to dismiss. This is really simple stuff, easy for an EE to understand yet many times the lay person attaches an almost religeous component. Perhaps it's the music that has soul and we supply the immagination and many times color our perceptions. Artistry in amp design to an EE is experience and understanding, some are better at it than others (call it skill), perhaps it seems an artform to those that do not understand how this works. Music, paintings, scupture are examples of art, amp design, IMO not so much.

+1. There are scientific principles behind amplifier design and measurable criteria for good sonic performance. That is why Electrical Engineering is a Bachelor of Science degree requiring study in physics while Music/Performing Arts is a Bachelor of Arts.
 

Very good and to the point .... effectively audio engineering is like medecine based on science but exercised as an art...

I am in the medical field, and it is a science... not an art. Only people not in medicine think that it is an 'art.' The 'art' of medicine is simply the differences that clinicians have in patient interactions and physicians choosing different treatment options based on their own personal biases (more conservative/more aggressive). However, good doctors will always refer to the literature, scientific studies, and ACOP guidelines to determine the best treatment plan. The only other consideration is patient preference, but good doctors will educate the patient of which treatment options are most viable.
 

very well said.....for Ernest Ansermet a mathematic professor who was one of the greatest conductor of the last century and who wrote one of the most astounding book about music, music is a  creation of the consciousness transcending the acoustical phenomena and transmutating it in  a musical sound for the spirit of man...

 
in a word number are less than quality for the living ear

Music actually does have a strong foundation in mathematics. There are often mathematical concepts underlying aesthetics. Symmetry, proportion, the golden ratio, and Fibonacci's numbers do guide our sense of beauty in art and music. Anyone who has ever taken a real Music theory class would have been bored to tears about all the mathematical junk you had to learn. "Examples of the use of mathematics in music include the stochastic music of Iannis Xenakis, counterpoint of Johann Sebastian Bach, polyrhythmic structures (as in Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring), the Metric modulation of Elliott Carter, permutation theory in serialism beginning with Arnold Schoenberg, and application of Shepard tones in Karlheinz Stockhausens Hymnen."
 

Why do people continue to complain about his opinion. . That's not all he gives. First he tells you EXACTLY how the headphone sounds according to our head-fi glossary and even compares them to other headphones to gives us an understanding. Then, if it doesn't go on his wall people say his reviews are less and less worth watching!?

We aren't complaining about his opinion. Just the fact that he is choosing not to review certain headphones for whatever random reason. It seems unfair.

 

[money4me247]

Originally Posted by mandrake50 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

  Except for people like Dan at Mr.Speakers he is truly an artist.

 
His stuff can "convey the "soul", "gestalt" of a musical event" through HE 560s?

 
lol... that's funny. if you guys heard that planar magnetic headphone panel, you would know that Dan at Mr. Speakers relies heavily on direct blind ABx comparisons and measurements when designing his headphones.

 

[jerg]

It's over 9000!!!!

 

[john57]

Just making the point that something that looks good on paper does not always translate to good sound in the field. Not all parameters in sound that the human ear can hear are fully understood using standard official measurements. There always a bit unknown and a good engineer will recognized that and that is were the "artist" phase will come into play. Otherwise a computer program will have all the answers and there will be fewer headphones on the market. We were talking about amps before and now back to the HE-560.

 

[mandrake50]

   
lol... that's funny. if you guys heard that planar magnetic headphone panel, you would know that Dan at Mr. Speakers relies heavily on direct blind ABx comparisons and measurements when designing his headphones.

I think that is true in many if not all cases. Check Tyll's review of the X2. He talked to one of the engineers. They Used ABX extensively in the design as well. Probably not "can you tell the difference" tests, but rather, "what sounds better to you" tests.

 

[hifimanrookie]

Except for people like Dan at Mr.Speakers he is truly an artist.

Or Luis with his code-x

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Or Luis with his code-x

Paulo,

Your Code-X's need to do an American Tour!

 

[hifimanrookie]

Paulo,

Your Code-X's need to do an American Tour!

No need to....most of the 20 original code-x'es (all brown woodies, except mine) were sold in the states! But somehow the owners dont have the need to talk about them or try to prove how good it really is...they just enjoy what they have...and enjoy in silence

but who knows, maybe one of them wants to take it to shows around usa? U never know but i have a feeling most owners are very protective with it as they are rare as heck.

I for sure will take him with me (and my amp) to the next dutch headfi (poor back of mine)!meet for dutch, belgian and german audio lovers.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

No need to....most of the 20 original code-x'es (all brown woodies, except mine) were sold in the states! But somehow the owners dont have the need to talk about them or try to prove how good it really is...they just enjoy what they have...and enjoy in silence

but who knows, maybe one of them wants to take it to shows around usa? U never know but i have a feeling most owners are very protective with it as they are rare as heck.

I for sure will take him with me (and my amp) to the next dutch headfi (poor back of mine)!meet for dutch, belgian and german audio lovers.

Just sent LFF a PM to see of he is currently modding HE560/400i's. If his mods are reasonable I would consider picking up a used 400i and sending it to him to be rebuilt.

The 560, with my very limited mods scales so well, I would love to see what a modding artist (yes Jerg we are impatiently waiting for your new 560 pronouncements) could do with an already excellent HP!

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Too bad there are none of those out there. It most especially is not happening with todays technology in headphones.

There are some out there, from esoteric Japanese amp and cartridge shops, Magnepan, SoundLab, DeVore, to name but a few.....

 

[Fearless1]

 But somehow the owners dont have the need to talk about them or try to prove how good it really is...they just enjoy what they have...and enjoy in silence

 

Except for you......

 

[money4me247]

 But somehow the owners dont have the need to talk about them or try to prove how good it really is...they just enjoy what they have...and enjoy in silence 

 

Except for you......

 
hahaha rotfl!!! =P

 

[hifimanrookie]

Except for you......:wink_face:

Somebody has to do the heavy lifting....right?.who else then me if no one else does it? He does wonderful stuff...and deserves to be talked about

 

[preproman]

Paulo,

Your Code-X's need to do an American Tour!

 
I'll buy the 560's before the Code-X any day...  Just my prefernce "Hifimanrookie".  However, IMO the 560's is not a headphone that scales very high.  It sounds good (the same) out of just about any amp out there. 

 

[StanD]

My friend..we are going to much into 'an amp is only good when u can measure it' as u know..as i hope ur am audiophile as well...is not true...check the tube amps for example..the worst measurable amps with designs that basically goes back to the beginning of the fomer century...and we al know..yep..u too (At least i hope u did!) how special some can sound...and i mean addictive special..not just nice sounding...and many GOOD measuring SS amps wont even touch some tubeamps soundwise and how it plays music...

So Stan..i know ur a numbers man..and i know u swear on that while buying ur audio...hope u one day will find out that numbers are not the most important factor in choosin ur audio equipment...i have some friends who are in the music industry for at least 30 years now....a pianist and a guitarist (and a non professional weirdo who plays very beautiful violin in his spare time) and NO ONE bought their stuff by how their measure..BUT how they sound! Not one single one...and they say even their techicians are like that..only the recording/mix tables etc..so the technical stuff they need to RECORD etc. Has to be technically perfect (i understand some stuff gets calibrated every other time!).. But the instruments? Ears!!!!

One of them talked me into his audio hobby in home...as before that i was all about car audio (attended few contest also) and thats a whole different ballgame with programs calculating (using mics on different spots in the car) the time music travels from one side to others and what filters to use so the interior influence of the car will be neutralized....thats very technical...for that i can understand numbers are important...but still..the speakers in their custommade enclosures and in their spots (spots also calculated and placed in a certain angle..etc.) are chosen for their soundsignature at the end....

But headphone rigs are very simple...u buy the headphone that u like sounding, buy the amp that makes it sing and get the dac that complements it..on top of that u can try out cables to squize the last bit of musicality out of ur rig...and then ur done...for this u dont need NO analyzer..for what? To measure what angle u have to put ur amp towards u? The way u have to put the headband on ur head? (which could actually change the soundstage by the way if u listen very carefully!)..

I think u, stan, are one of those who swear on the O2 principle...Am sure if he had 5w more u probably would had one by now...as thats..according to ur believes...the perfect amp to play music on...oops..wrongly said...the perfect amp to let the current through to your headphones..totally colorless...and totally boring..but hey..thats a personal preference...and many..and i mean many go by that...as that amp sold by the thousands if i am not mistaken... Good for them

Ok..lets end this by saying we agree in not agreeing...its a real shame ur so far away..as i know where ur coming from my friend..and am not attacking u..i once told u many of my friends are very practical thinking technical Engineers..in several areas..and although most of them said (even the ones who earn a huge salery) that i am a bit nuts spending this amount of money on a headphone rig, they all agree it sounds very special..and ALL said they didnt expected that! As for them headphone rigs are just second grade audio, two of them ordered a hd800 and their sennheiser TOTL amp to go with it (they find hifiman a bit to risky..their words!!) recently... So i won two for the headphone team

but if u ever visit amsterdam...give me a call...am not saying i will transform u in a babbling emotional audiophile..u will still be ur technical practical urself..but am sure u will believe that amps can sound better then others

You must read what I say more carefully, Firstly the specs you read, that are published, are not what a good engineer measures while developing their design. You don't see the different measurements especially those under at the dificult fringe conditions. Usually one sees THD at 1 KHz at an east power level. You don't get to see TIMD or THD at the highest power levels. I've never listened to the O2, perhaps at peaks or higher power levels the amp starts to fall apart, perhaps it holds true and much of the frazzle is bias, as there are many who adore this amp and they do as you speak, listen to it. I maintain that a well designed amp, done properly by an experienced EE that sells for $250 will sound just as good as your more pricey amp adorned with capacitors. I never said that you or anyone must feel as I do. If you understood the technicalities and sidesteped your own strong opinions you might have an eye opening experience.
By the way as far as music goes, I studied Diatonic and Chromatic Harmony as well as Counterpoint, etc. while in HS as well as University. I worked with well known recording artists when in University, on their EMS (Analog Synthesizers). I can also sight read, these days not so good as I don't keep up. I even made coin as a musician, albiet a few decades ago.
I have an exceptional ear for hearng harmonics and would modify and adjust the circuits in VCO's in EMS's for nearly perfect intonation. Working with analog EMSs will bring out your ears as unlike samplers and presets, one has to create their sounds from the ground up. By the way, back then headphones were awful.