[Pooger]

Have narrowed my DIY amp build to either a B22 or The Wire. Would be single ended, at least for now. (My DACs balanced outs are going to speaker amps, and I'd rather not have to replug them to listen to the 560s.)

Does anyone have experience with both running 560s?

 

[MattTCG]

I got the 560 in this afternoon. When I auditioned them before, I felt like there was about a 20-25% difference between them and the 400i. After hearing them today, I'll stick with that original assessment. But man, that 25% is sounding really good. 

 

[WhiskeyJacks]

  I got the 560 in this afternoon. When I auditioned them before, I felt like there was about a 20-25% difference between them and the 400i. After hearing them today, I'll stick with that original assessment. But man, that 25% is sounding really good. 

How do you like them with the Lyr2? that is what you are using or not? Was just wondering, I am currently using mine with the NFB 28 and they sound very nice, I do not know if I prefer them with this than the PanAm and Geekout but this does drive them with more authority.

 

[DigitalFreak]

 

[Bill-P]

  How do you like them with the Lyr2? that is what you are using or not? Was just wondering, I am currently using mine with the NFB 28 and they sound very nice, I do not know if I prefer them with this than the PanAm and Geekout but this does drive them with more authority.

 
Yeah, I'm not surprised.
 
The HE-560 loves power. Or to be more precise, it loves more stable power, and also a lot of headroom so that there won't be any funny business going on.
 
Give it enough power, and things would start improving.
 

 

 
Nice review!
 
Echo my thoughts perfectly. Hence why I think the HE-560 will benefit from a powerful amp that has superb control over the whole range while rolling off the high-end slightly.
 
But so very few amps can actually do so. Most of the higher-end ones actually go even brighter because it gives the sense of "extension", but at the expense of listening fatigue.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

The HE-560 loves power. Or to be more precise, it loves more stable power, and also a lot of headroom so that there won't be any funny business going on.

Give it enough power, and things would start improving.


Nice review!

Echo my thoughts perfectly. Hence why I think the HE-560 will benefit from a powerful amp that has superb control over the whole range while rolling off the high-end slightly.

But so very few amps can actually do so. Most of the higher-end ones actually go even brighter because it gives the sense of "extension", but at the expense of listening fatigue.

I have a Belles One Amp coming for my Head Fi Rig. After hearing Theogenes First Watt setup for his HE-6, I am sold on power, massive headroom, and ultitmely dynamics beyond belief.

Bill-P as our residnt Techie, I am trying to figure out the power to headphones. The Belles One is 125@8 ohms, 200@4 ohms, the 560 is 50 +/- 8, the Alpha Dog is 32 ohms. The HiFiMan Adapter Box is 10 ohms in Parallel, 25 ohms Serial. Any help is appreciated!

 

[Bill-P]

Let's see...
 
200W into 4 Ohms -> ~28V output, 7A
125W into 8 Ohms -> ~31V output, 4A
 
So quite a bit of power on tap.
 
Assuming that 31V is the max voltage output of the amp, I'd think that should be enough to push about 19W into the HE-560. Just about enough to blow it up.
 
So plugging the HE-560 directly into the speaker taps is a bad idea.
 
Using the Hifiman Adapter Box transforms the whole thing so that the HE-560 appears like a 75 Ohm load in parallel with a 10 Ohm load. That translates to a 8.8 Ohm load.
 
To make things simpler, I guess we can consider that about the same as the 8 Ohm load above, so it'll get about the same 31V output from the amp.
 
The 10 Ohm resistors will have to handle about 100W like that, so... well, they'll want some pretty beefy resistors. I'd guess that those are there to saturate the current output of the amp so that in the unlikely event something explodes, then at least the 10-Ohm resistors will protect your headphone. Pretty nifty.
 
The 75 Ohm load, however, will get about 400mA. And then separating the 25 Ohm resistor and the HE-560, the HE-560 will get about a 20V voltage drop, which is enough for 8W.
 
So at maximum volume on that amp, I think you'd get about 8W.
 
You'd definitely want to listen at lower volumes, of course, but 8W at max volume is not as bad as 19W, right? And that's still a lot of headroom.

 

[john57]

The problems with strong amps you have to be more careful with transits or switching noises that could blow out the headphone because of the larger dynamic power range of the amp. In other words you do not want to unplug the RCA inputs to the amp while on and the headphones connected.

 

[Bill-P]

  The problems with strong amps you have to be more careful with transits or switching noises that could blow out the headphone because of the larger dynamic power range of the amp. In other words you do not want to unplug the RCA inputs to the amp while on and the headphones connected.

 
That's what the 10-Ohm resistors in the box are for. They are there to protect the headphone from any voltage or current spike coming from the speaker amp.
 
That's quite a worthwhile box IMO, if it performs to specifications.

 

[MattTCG]

I'm loving the sound of the 560. The improvement across the frequency is clear and appreciable. They are faster, more resolving and I love how the bass seems linear to the material being played. What I don't like are the cheap looking veneer cups. The 400i painted black chrome easily outclasses them. The cups to me, just look plain cheap. At nearly $1k, they should be solid wood cups. If hifiman couldn't get the process stable and reliable for the cups, then they should have used painted cups like the 400i. ymmv

 

[money4me247]

  I'm loving the sound of the 560. The improvement across the frequency is clear and appreciable. They are faster, more resolving and I love how the bass seems linear to the material being played. What I don't like are the cheap looking veneer cups. The 400i painted black chrome easily outclasses them. The cups to me, just look plain cheap. At nearly $1k, they should be solid wood cups. If hifiman couldn't get the process stable and reliable for the cups, then they should have used painted cups like the 400i. ymmv

+1. the painted chrome is sooo much sexierr lol!

 

[mlxx]

  Also, price does not always have a direct correlation to sound quality. Just because you are spending a boatload of money on cables/amps/dacs/whatever else, there is no guarantee for significant sonic improvements. It is quite logical to look at the diminishing returns of actual sonic improvements & decide it's not worth it. Direct volume-matched double-blind ABx testing between equipment would be the best way to gauge what sonic improvements you can personally notice between gear. You should be able to accurately identify which component is in the chain while blinded if the sonic changes are significant. I think it is unfortunate that many people here who say there are enormous sonic changes between gear never take the time to do that simple objective comparison.

 
Just want to respond to this a bit more, I may have been a bit quick and mean before, sorry if I was (the Audeze prototype had blinded me).
 
Yeah its true price isn't always everything, we all should know that already. I am not saying to spend money blindly because something costs more it must be better, but I am saying to give other more high end gear a go on a totl hp. I am sure you know about the HD800 right? One time I tried it on the $1.5k Burson H160D, I thought it was worse than my HE400 and but then another time I thought it was almost better than the LCD3 using the Liquid Gold and some $7k femto dac thingy, forget what it was called now (I am also not saying to go out and buy this expensive setup, its just an extreme example of what can happen with the wrong setup).
 
I find it quite difficult to pick out some gear sometimes, but it can also be really obvious, I can pick it out instantly depending on the situation. If I am comparing high end stuff (amps or dacs, not headphones), I find it quite hard because in most cases they are great sounding and its more a case that I like both equally well. When I compare something that costs $200 with the say a Liquid Gold on a LCD3.. a deaf man can pick the difference. Going from $200 to $2000 is also usually very obvious on a headphone like the LCD3, not so much on my previous one the HE400. That is not to say the $200 one is crap, if that is all you heard, you will love it too. I tried just 2 amps with the HE560, the Conductor and HA-1, couldn't really notice the difference, but the difference between these two is quite noticeable on a LCD3 though. So it depends a lot on the hp being used. Going from cheap gear to expensive, I can pick differences out usually easily, going from cheap to cheap or expensive to expensive, its harder, then some ABX testing "might" be handy, but....
 
With regards to ABX testing more generally, that doesn't always mean much, it just means you were not able to pick the difference at that instant in time. Here is an example... A few years back, when Jerg started his modding empire, I decided to test his re-grilling mod on the HE400 because it was easy to do by just taking the grills off and then just holding them back on with my hands. I thought I could hear a slight improvement, but I could see what I was doing with my hands so I though that may be affecting me, so I got some one to do a blind test with me. To take the grills on and off instead of me doing it. I thought this was worth doing before I spent the time making grills. I couldn't really reliably tell the difference in the blind test so I gave up on it. But people kept commenting how much it improved things so then I decided to just leave them off for a week. After a few days or so I felt as if I was enjoying the headphone a bit more than usual but really couldn't pin point why. Then some days later I decided to put the grills back on again, and then within a few hours, I couldn't stand it anymore and had to take them off. So ABX doesn't always work as well you might think.

 

[MickeyVee]

You mention the treble edginess on the HE560 a number of times and to be honest, while it might be there, I don't find that it gets in the way.  They just reveal what in the recording and I don't think they add any harshness.  Actually, I wish the treble was a little more extended as I find it rolled off a bit.  As far as the bass goes, I don't think it slams but is well balanced with the rest of the spectrum with a little richness, great impact and nice and fast.
I do have to qualify my observations by saying that my main HP is the HD800.  In some ways, the HE560 sound a little darkish to me.
 
I do have to say that it may be the only HP that will survive side by side with my HD800. The sweet thing is that I can go back and forth between the two in the same session and not have to adjust to the sound. TBH, If I had the HE560 first, I may have never have gone to the HD800.
 
Totally agree.. Nice Job HiFiMAN!
 
 
Quote:

   

 

[mandrake50]

 
With regards to ABX testing more generally, that doesn't always mean much, it just means you were not able to pick the difference at that instant in time. Here is an example... A few years back, when Jerg started his modding empire, I decided to test his re-grilling mod on the HE400 because it was easy to do by just taking the grills off and then just holding them back on with my hands. I thought I could hear a slight improvement, but I could see what I was doing with my hands so I though that may be affecting me, so I got some one to do a blind test with me. To take the grills on and off instead of me doing it. I thought this was worth doing before I spent the time making grills. I couldn't really reliably tell the difference in the blind test so I gave up on it. But people kept commenting how much it improved things so then I decided to just leave them off for a week. After a few days or so I felt as if I was enjoying the headphone a bit more than usual but really couldn't pin point why. Then some days later I decided to put the grills back on again, and then within a few hours, I couldn't stand it anymore and had to take them off. So ABX doesn't always work as well you might think.

The point of ABX is to tell if you can reliably tell a difference when your best audio memory, short term, is used.
It does fine for that. It cannot take into consideration your perception that is based on lots of things... brain burn they say, expectation bias, all that you have read, your mood and what you were doing while listening... etc. Try listening with the grills on for a solid week,  let me tell you that they are much better that way... and believe it. Then take them off and listen.
 
ABX is not the be all and end all for deciding anything other than what it was designed to do. That is, isolate all of the biases as much as possible to document differences that are actually perceptible to the listener.
 
Ideally a large number of subjects are included and statistical analysis done on the results. This should go even further in indicating results that are  valid. Otherwise, it still falls into the realm of anecdotal results. No matter how the tests were constructed. A well designed, conducted, and documented series of ABX comparisons will provide good data. It will not predict how you will feel or perceive sound  at some future point in time. That is not what it is intended to do. The science and computing power to do that is not yet here. Thank God!

 

[money4me247]

  Just want to respond to this a bit more, I may have been a bit quick and mean before, sorry if I was (the Audeze prototype had blinded me).
 
Yeah its true price isn't always everything, we all should know that already. I am not saying to spend money blindly because something costs more it must be better, but I am saying to give other more high end gear a go on a totl hp. I am sure you know about the HD800 right? One time I tried it on the $1.5k Burson H160D, I thought it was worse than my HE400 and but then another time I thought it was almost better than the LCD3 using the Liquid Gold and some $7k femto dac thingy, forget what it was called now (I am also not saying to go out and buy this expensive setup, its just an extreme example of what can happen with the wrong setup).
 
I find it quite difficult to pick out some gear sometimes, but it can also be really obvious, I can pick it out instantly depending on the situation. If I am comparing high end stuff (amps or dacs, not headphones), I find it quite hard because in most cases they are great sounding and its more a case that I like both equally well. When I compare something that costs $200 with the say a Liquid Gold on a LCD3.. a deaf man can pick the difference. Going from $200 to $2000 is also usually very obvious on a headphone like the LCD3, not so much on my previous one the HE400. That is not to say the $200 one is crap, if that is all you heard, you will love it too. I tried just 2 amps with the HE560, the Conductor and HA-1, couldn't really notice the difference, but the difference between these two is quite noticeable on a LCD3 though. So it depends a lot on the hp being used. Going from cheap gear to expensive, I can pick differences out usually easily, going from cheap to cheap or expensive to expensive, its harder, then some ABX testing "might" be handy, but....
 
With regards to ABX testing more generally, that doesn't always mean much, it just means you were not able to pick the difference at that instant in time. Here is an example... A few years back, when Jerg started his modding empire, I decided to test his re-grilling mod on the HE400 because it was easy to do by just taking the grills off and then just holding them back on with my hands. I thought I could hear a slight improvement, but I could see what I was doing with my hands so I though that may be affecting me, so I got some one to do a blind test with me. To take the grills on and off instead of me doing it. I thought this was worth doing before I spent the time making grills. I couldn't really reliably tell the difference in the blind test so I gave up on it. But people kept commenting how much it improved things so then I decided to just leave them off for a week. After a few days or so I felt as if I was enjoying the headphone a bit more than usual but really couldn't pin point why. Then some days later I decided to put the grills back on again, and then within a few hours, I couldn't stand it anymore and had to take them off. So ABX doesn't always work as well you might think

 
A lot of people say that synergy of components is more important than total cost. I would tend to agree with that. Not because I believe in any magic pairing, but I think people simply have different preferences of coloration that different combinations may cater to better. I do strongly believe that after a certain point of well-researched spending, the sound quality has already reached audible transparency, and any further adjustments really is more preferential than pure sonic upgrade. I do not think that the higher price tag of the equipment makes it inherently more suitable for your preferences. The problem with comparisons while knowing the price difference, you will be subconsciously biased towards the more expensive stuff. I think it would be wise for an individual to do the comparison blinded as it would reveal which amplifier best caters to their personal preferences without any bias.
 
If you cannot easily pick out the sonic differences in a direct blind ABx comparison, then the sonic changes (if they do in fact exist) would be extremely subtle. Many times here, such extremely subtle sonic changes get extremely over-emphasized to the point that people get the impression that there it is a night-in-day difference. Usually, from my own personal experimentation, I have found that not to be the case.
 
In your grill mod experience, now that you have had a lot of time with both grill & grill-less, you should be able to identify which mod you have on in a blind test and what specific sonic changes occur. The phenomenon of feeling like you are enjoying the headphones a bit more while consciously knowing you are grill-less and then not being able to stand the sound when you know that the grills are on... there can be two very equally reasonable explanations: expectation bias or real sonic difference. The point of a blind ABx test is to remove expectation bias. If during a blind test, you cannot tell the difference, but then when you know which mod is on, you can tell the difference... that strongly suggests the effect is simply from expectation bias. If there was a significant sonic upgrade, you should be able to identify despite being blinded.
 
There are many articles out there on how our perception of quality or improvement can be easily fooled by expectation bias. I think that blind testing can be helpful in dispelling misconceptions or revealing how significant subjective impressions of sonic changes are. If you disagree and are not at all curious about whether your personal subjective impressions may be biased by other factors, blind testing is obviously not necessary for you. It is just two different approaches to the hobby I think.