[bagwell359]

GirgleMirt wrote:

I think 'distortion' or 'ringing' are somewhat blanket terms that most people can't really precisely hear and process; in the sense that the human brain and ears aren't physiologically precise enough to get a clear picture like you can with a waterfall graph. Ok if you have a graph, then you can somewhat try to correlate what you hear to what was measured (but then how to eliminate placebo?), but I truly doubt that a human could reliably draw a waterfall or CSD graph similar to what would be measured... Or maybe I'm wrong. Do you have an audio clip (youtube or anywhere else) where we can hear what you're speaking about? And go into more details into what we should be hearing?

I think that for most people, from my experience, that 8.5kHz peak is the killer. If you EQ the 400i using an inverse EQ curve, something like below, you get a much smoother sound and most of the harshness/sharpness/brightness (distortion) you can hear just goes away. It becomes much smoother and more forgiving, surprisingly without sacrificing much of anything. Well given the boosted bass (below results in a bit of boosted bass) it seems to lose a bit of 'speed' and tightness in the bottom, but, it gains a lot in having a flatter and much less lean/bright character.

But yeah, for the ringing/distortion, I think the 8.5kHz peak is the killer, as to my ears, this is what can make the 400i sound harsh/bright at times. It can add sparkle with say guitar harmonics or strings (ex; violin) 'detail'; so which could be easily construed as very resolving, yet it's something added by 400i and not really resolved; which at other times, like vocals, can and will definitely eventually pop up as 'harshness'...

Let me explain it by using an example. The HFM HE-500. After a lot of listening and reading up on mods, I migrated them from stock to modified and mitigated a number of issues. From the end point the driver is a stunning accomplishment, held down like Guliver by a number of oversights and mistakes.

Unmodified they resolve well, but intermodulate complex passages, and also have that HFM cymbal decay which to fans is evidence of superior resolution. They are slightly chesty and veiled in the lower mids/upper bass.

Install the 'fuzzor' mod which cuts down reflections and the intermodulation while not stopped is greatly reduced. The cymbal decay is shorter, but still not right. Getting rid of the stock silver plate cable for a decent copper, and the decay is shorter still. Add some dynamat and the bass gets tighter. Take off the rear screen (or put in much less restrictive screens) and while you lose some bass impact, the whole 500 Hz down area is less chesty and fuzzed over. Add them all up the cymbal decay is still a bit long but not the technicolored extreme decay of stock. Oh yes, the MrSpeaker Ether Closed pads upgrade - better bass, flatest treble, super wide soundstage..

I didn't invent the mods I made to the 500, there is a huge compendium to choose from. I rejected some as ineffective or wrong changes.

I don't do EQ, so I've got to get my chain to be musically truthful w/o that.

 

[GirgleMirt]

From private messages with E1DA (hope there's no issue sharing this!), the gist of the conversation was that according to E1DA there are likely more than two 'versions' of the 400i. Looking at online measurements, innerfidelity and E1DA's own measurements show flat bass response to 20hz, while diyaudioheaven, rtings (https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/he-400i) and maybe others show a non-flat & recessed bass. And even more strangely, E1DA's measurements do not show the 8.5kHz peak...

Other oddity, diyaudioheaven measured the old model (old connector + plate) and the 'new' model, and both showed the declining bass. Mine were purchased in 2016 and his was in 2017. He theorized it might be sealing issue, but I can confirm it's not the case for me; the headphones couldn't be tighter nor have better seal and I'm definitely not getting flat bass to 20hz; my headphones sound to me exactly like diyaudioheaven & rtings FR measurements... And having tried to correct using innerfidelity's measurements, it did not work very well, while correcting for rting's and DIY measurements yielded much greater success (achieving much more neutral sound).

E1DA: I saw the older he400i model had reversed magnet/membrane configuration, no idea what stopped hfm to change the model's name. Not sure about 3rd version or 4rth but if #1 and #2 were so much different, should I be surprised? I measured by myself my own he400i, and you saw the result. Regarding 20Hz response, I believe it is pads to head leakage issue. I tried to install the mic (which looks as pencil 5mm diameter) between the he400i pad and my head to measure freq.resp. with ear, and I got 20-40Hz dropped a lot due to air leakage. Also, I tried Quad ERA1 with two pad types, velvet one had an obvious bass lack vs leather for the same reason - leakage. About 8kHz peak I've really no idea and can explain the difference only by different headphone model with the same name.

Another set of measurements here show the declining bass from ~55hz: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/4binmu/400i_with_alpha_pads_pics_measurements/ Not as severe as DIY's, but still...

So just how many different sounding versions is there of this headphone?! I was searching for other measurements, and saw that sonarworks (FR correction / EQ software) customers are also complaining that their correction for the 400i is out of whack, and the response mentions newer vs older model with the backplate. So 2 versions, one old, one new, but no mention of more than 2. https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/e...iman-HE400i-Profile-Too-Much-Bass-Reference-4 Some mention might be amp also... Just found this: https://bradshacks.com/he400i-eq-2/

 

[GirgleMirt]

So just how many different sounding versions is there of this headphone?

Yeah ok I'm now pretty damn sure it's not the headphones but the measurements: There would be two 400i versions; old with back plate vs new without (plus different connectors) and the new are definitely not flat to 20hz, it's really a measurement issue...

Take another example, Sundara. Innerfidelity also shows it as being flat from 40Hz to 1kHz, but both rtings and diy show them having quite similar bass roll off as the 400i. And just like the 400i, I don't think the Sundaras are known to be flat to 20 or 40hz either. Yet from innerfidelity's measurements, they would be perfectly flat to 40Hz. There's likely not many versions of the Sundara either, some with flat 20Hz and others not... So I'm pretty confident it's a measuring oddity rather than multiple versions of both the 400i and Sundaras, with some having weak gimped bass and others having solid flat extended bass...

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANSundara.pdf
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/sundara
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/sundara/

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMANHE4002014.pdf
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/he-400i
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/he400i/

Also pretty much all innerfidelity's measurements seem to show much flatter low bass throughout their headphone measurements, compared to DIY & rtings who's measurements tend to roll off a lot more than innerfidelity.

E1DA (or others who possibly might have a 400i with flat response to 20Hz), if you're playing test tones from ~20Hz to 300Hz, do you really NOT hear any amplitude change from 20 to 200Hz? Same thing in the 8.5KHz region, do you really not hear the peak? https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ It's pretty easy to hear on my pair; and even just playing music, you can definitely hear that they have a tad bright leaning FR (mid & high emphasis); the opposite of a warm headphone with excessive bass...

 

[adeseaso]

I have a new pair and the 8k peak is there. For me it ruins the can, they are up for sale. Not because it's sharp or painful, it just overrides other important mid range - treble information.

 

[bagwell359]

I have a new pair and the 8k peak is there. For me it ruins the can, they are up for sale. Not because it's sharp or painful, it just overrides other important mid range - treble information.

I tried felt and dynamat and taking the rear screen off. I think it helped, but, not enough. EQ would be surer. The thing for me was doing those mods (and more) to a better can - the HE-500, with a ringing peak a bit higher up (10.5 kHz) resulted in nearly a reference can that's still warm and pleasant.

If you must have a HFM product you've got: 560 ((used or new) - not my cuppa), HE5se, Sundara, used HE-500, used HEX v2, Edition XX, Ananda (also not my cuppa)

All of those clearly better than the 400i.

 

[adeseaso]

I tried felt and dynamat and taking the rear screen off. I think it helped, but, not enough. EQ would be surer. The thing for me was doing those mods (and more) to a better can - the HE-500, with a ringing peak a bit higher up (10.5 kHz) resulted in nearly a reference can that's still warm and pleasant.

If you must have a HFM product you've got: 560 ((used or new) - not my cuppa), HE5se, Sundara, used HE-500, used HEX v2, Edition XX, Ananda (also not my cuppa)

All of those clearly better than the 400i.

I did audition the Sundara in store for half an hour or so but the store was a bit too busy at the time for it to be a fair assessment. But I might try it used sometime as it did sound more promising with less of an apparent void in the mid range.

I'm too happy with HD600 to be in any rush but I'll keep trying cans with bass. Mid range and timbre will always be most important to me but if I find something that throws bass into the mix without being too much of a step down timbre wise from HD600 I'm all for it.

 

[DavidA]

I have a new pair and the 8k peak is there. For me it ruins the can, they are up for sale. Not because it's sharp or painful, it just overrides other important mid range - treble information.

You might want to try and find an original HE400i with SMC connectors, a bit different sounding from any of the newer variations from what I've found after listening to a 2.5mm without back plate. Haven't heard the newest 3.5mm version so these might be even more different than the 2.5mm ones.

 

[bagwell359]

I did audition the Sundara in store for half an hour or so but the store was a bit too busy at the time for it to be a fair assessment. But I might try it used sometime as it did sound more promising with less of an apparent void in the mid range.

I'm too happy with HD600 to be in any rush but I'll keep trying cans with bass. Mid range and timbre will always be most important to me but if I find something that throws bass into the mix without being too much of a step down timbre wise from HD600 I'm all for it.

My HD600's are my third favorite can of the under $750 (new or used) price range I've tried.

The used and heavily modded HE-500's I have I think are better, the unmodded HEX v2 is also better. Take a shot...

 

[CADCAM]

I need suggestions on a balanced cable for my HE400i, there are a couple on flebay but I'm not sure. I have the 2.5mm connection to the cups.
Any and all input appreciated.

Update~Just had some interaction with a fellow member Fasterball on cables and just wanted so say he's a stand up guy who is honest and looks to make a fine looking cable. I really like this type of member, informed, honest and willing to help.

 

[AJCxZ0]

Just had some interaction with a fellow member Fasterball on cables and just wanted so say he's a stand up guy who is honest and looks to make a fine looking cable.

Please follow up with your experience. I recently spent hours trying to find a sanely priced 2.5mm TRRS to 2.5mm TS cable for my HE400i, Monolith M1060C and EarStudio ES100 with no good results. Periapt would probably make a custom cable, but I am looking for something lighter like my (unbalanced 3.5/6.25mm) P3 cable.

 

[raband]

I think cables for the Senn HD700 will fit the above if that helps when searching

 

[hakuzen]

I need suggestions on a balanced cable for my HE400i, there are a couple on flebay but I'm not sure. I have the 2.5mm connection to the cups.
Any and all input appreciated.

Update~Just had some interaction with a fellow member Fasterball on cables and just wanted so say he's a stand up guy who is honest and looks to make a fine looking cable. I really like this type of member, informed, honest and willing to help.

if you can't find your desired cable for HE400i, you can use mmcx/2pins to 2.5/3.5mm adapters, like these:

these adapters add versatility to your precious cable, as you can use it also for your mmcx/2pins iems.

check my list of cables. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/resistance-of-cables-pics-comments-and-links.907998/
those in first and second part are the best from my collection. you can ask for no ear guides, and 2.5mm plugs for your he400i, in cables 170-174 (you choose the plugs from their stock), and cables 133 of my list.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/resistance-of-cables-pics-comments-and-links.907998/#post-14985616 (part 1)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/resistance-of-cables-pics-comments-and-links.907998/#post-14985620 (part 2)

i'm using cables 171, 174, and 133, for Ananda and HE400i.

 

[AJCxZ0]

I think cables for the Senn HD700 will fit the above if that helps when searching

You're quite right that HD700 is a useful search term for finding 2.5mm TS connectors, especially since HE400i is now on its third connector type (3.5mm TS), though the connectors tend to have extra length for the HD700-specific section. The tricky part is the 2.5mm TRRS. While I am being picky and cheap, the 2m $60 Sukira HIFI and $53 NewFantasia HiFi (which looks the same as the $49 cable and the $50 cable, but maybe the TRRS pinouts differ) are too long and expensive, the $57 1.5 mile KK Cable U-XV has a chunky TRRS connector and Y splitter and is too long and expensive.
There seems to be a huge premium on the 2.5mm TS connectors when paired with the 2.5mm (or 4.4mm) TRRS, as seen with the $29 RCA version of the NewFantasia HiFi.

 

[HungryPanda]

I got this one for my HE400i that has 2.5mm sockets

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sennheis...st-nighthawk-OPPO-cable-upgrade/232847196230?

 

[AJCxZ0]

you can use mmcx/2pins to 2.5/3.5mm adapters, ...these adapters add versatility to your precious cable, as you can use it also for your mmcx/2pins iems.

Thanks for this clever suggestion and for your cable references. That's a lot of good work. Do you have a link to the adapters? I have yet to find a single match.

Do you think this $6.90 2.5mm TRRS to MMCX KZ cable (or their similar but cheaper copper cables) would work with the adapters and if so, then which MMCX connector? It seems suspicious that it costs an order of magnitude less than most similar cable, yet has good reviews. I'm starting to read the Low end. Cheap. Generic. Otherwise bang for buck cable thread!