[superuser1]

On a lighter note i think Joe should send Chris a leather case for the R6

 

[Mathieulh]

Why did hibby go for a 2.5mm balanced output when 4.4mm is becoming the de-facto standard? This seems somewhat of a deal breaker to me, I don't want to purchase a bunch of additional adapters or new cables for all my headphones and I rather not use the Single Ended output if I can help it.

 

[superuser1]

Why did hibby go for a 2.5mm balanced output when 4.4mm is becoming the de-facto standard? This seems somewhat of a deal breaker to me, I don't want to purchase a bunch of additional adapters or new cables for all my headphones and I rather not use the Single Ended output if I can help it.

You are right i would have given this a go from the start if they had 4.4mm balanced. However, the majority have 2.5mm cables, i know its just an adaptor but maybe they are catering to the majority.

 

[Hawaiibadboy]

On a lighter note i think Joe should send Chris a leather case for the R6

re-post cuz page was flipped and I read stuff that made me bored.

 

[obileye obiyemi]

@Joe Bloggs Will the R6 be available in the UK?
What will be the estimated cost? Thanks

 

[headwhacker]

If we are to speculate about earphone product design "blind"--headphone ports with appreciable output impedance are still quite common, and probably will continue to be for some time to come. We can talk about the why and the upshot of it:

The why: can be understood in the light of examining the situation in an analogous but contrasting market, that of loudspeaker amplifiers.
--------
The load: is standardized to a nominal impedance range from 4 to 8 ohms, a mere 100% variation range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: indisputable; loudspeaker woofers otherwise having a near flat frequency response (also indisputably desired in loudspeakers) inevitably have a big sharp impedance spike in the 100-200Hz range caused by mechanical resonance, causing loose, boomy bass independent of any room acoustics if left unchecked by a nonzero OI / low damping factor.
The safety: the somewhat hazardous step of connecting speaker cables to (possibly but not necessarily closely spaced) speaker posts needs only be performed once per installation, which could be once a year or so; nevertheless accidental shorting with the amplifier on and playing would be good enough to blow a fuse if not an opamp.

The headphones market, in contrast:
--------
The load: ranges from 8 ohm to 600 ohm (various Beyerdynamic classics, e.g.) nominal, a 7500% variatio range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: doubtful; flat measured response is not desirable in the first place (HRTF compensations being required) and various electroacoustic hacks are "required" * to produce a desirable frequency response (which itself is a moving target given normal individual variations), such hacks famously including adding output impedance purposefully (cf. Etymotic ER-4P/S with in-line resistance being part of the electroacoustic design)
*Or maybe one day the market could accept that digital equalization does a better job of this than any electroacoustics...
The safety: doubtful; standardized connections place exposed contacts a mere millimetre away from each other and some form of shorting is accepted as a matter of course each time you plug or unplug the earphones. Even if all direct hazards to equipment may be accounted for (which requires dedicated circuitry and parts in a "0-Z" design), the bare fact remains that the 8-ohm IEMs are orders of magnitude more sensitive per mW than the 600-ohm cans, and are fed 7500% more power by the 0-Z amplifier to boot. This if nothing else continues to pose a safety hazard for any customer who owns both kinds of headphones. If one were to, say, have a good head-banging session with a capable 0-Z amplifier and say a pair of Beyerdynamic DT880-600, leave them off for the night, go to work next morning with said amplifier and plug the Andromeda in, and forget to adjust the volume in the process... Anything from blown IEMs to temporary deafness may result

That was a technical discussion that went off the deep end ... the upshot on the other hand is simple: Given that the market of headphone audio is likely to continue to be populated with devices with various amounts of non-zero output impedance, devices with zero output impedance by definition lie at one extreme of the kinds of sounds that would be produced by devices on the market. As a earphone maker, it would make sense to design for optimal sound from a "middle-of-the-road" device, a device with middling output impedance, somewhere between 0 and the high end of the outdated 120 ohm standard and even higher impedance possible in loudspeaker amplifiers doubling as headphone outputs via a high series resistance in some home systems.

Not saying that this is what happens all the time, just that it may happen more often than you think.

While what you said has valid points. We are talking about a DAP with output power way below the output of an amplifier you are pointing out. While it may make sense for a desktop or a speaker amp with high OI headphone jack as protection for the scenario you mentioned, it is no where near the same in portable space. You just mentioned Andromeda, so I assume you are aware that there are many iems out there with similar impedance curve. The market nowadays, are littered with multiple BA/crossover design.

There are many ways to prevent blown iems than just slapping a high OI output. You could have a start up volume set at low level or automatically set the volume low if no playback is detected at certain amount of time, which can be done in software. (just to name a few, there could be other ways too )Also why 10ohms? you could have gone in the 2 - 3Ohms range and still offer similar protection and the impact on frequency shifting could be more subtler.

EQ as you mentioned can correct the frequency shift as I have no doubt R6 will have a robust one (being a full android DAP). But, that means I have to make an EQ for almost all of my iems just to account for the OI, instead of just using EQ to change the flavor of the iem when the mood calls for it on occasion. You made DTA as a big deal feature that is absent on other Android-based DAPs because it assures bit perfect playback. Isn't that being negated at the output for an iem like the Andromeda. I have an NT6, while it's spec'ed at 27Ohms at 1Khz, measurements show that it can dip as low as around 5 to 8 ohms in the high range.

 

[Bona F Pardede]

hi @Joe Bloggs , can I order the hiby r6 + case only? whenever I click get this perk and indiegogo, it is automatically continue to payment and can not add the case?

so it would be processed as two payments.. is it like this?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

While what you said has valid points. We are talking about a DAP with output power way below the output of an amplifier you are pointing out. While it may make sense for a desktop or a speaker amp with high OI headphone jack as protection for the scenario you mentioned, it is no where near the same in portable space. You just mentioned Andromeda, so I assume you are aware that there are many iems out there with similar impedance curve. The market nowadays, are littered with multiple BA/crossover design.

There are many ways to prevent blown iems than just slapping a high OI output. You could have a start up volume set at low level or automatically set the volume low if no playback is detected at certain amount of time, which can be done in software. (just to name a few, there could be other ways too )Also why 10ohms? you could have gone in the 2 - 3Ohms range and still offer similar protection and the impact on frequency shifting could be more subtler.

EQ as you mentioned can correct the frequency shift as I have no doubt R6 will have a robust one (being a full android DAP). But, that means I have to make an EQ for almost all of my iems just to account for the OI, instead of just using EQ to change the flavor of the iem when the mood calls for it on occasion. You made DTA as a big deal feature that is absent on other Android-based DAPs because it assures bit perfect playback. Isn't that being negated at the output for an iem like the Andromeda. I have an NT6, while it's spec'ed at 27Ohms at 1Khz, measurements show that it can dip as low as around 5 to 8 ohms in the high range.

Hmm...
1. The premise of my post was to discuss what to think of earphones for which a stated target output impedance is not described by the manufacturer: what to think / guess the target output impedance might be. Any implication that the R6 could not be made to be 0 ohm OI is purely incidental and not intentional. (except insofar as it is *now* impossible to change the design to be 0 ohm OI)

2. You argue from the assumption that all IEMs are "intended" to be driven out of 0 ohm outputs unless otherwise stated and the FR would otherwise need be corrected for impedance. The negative implications of nonzero OI for all IEMs "unless otherwise stated" you give all stem from this assumption. Again, the premise of my post was exactly to discuss what kind of OI IEMs may be designed for if not stated, and I believe I give good reasons arguing that the default assumption should not be zero, if I do say so myself.

P.S. e.g. If you look at the past reviews at rinchoi.blogspot.uk for example, it was routine practice for Rin Choi to measure frequency response with several different series output impedances added, up to 100 ohms, and discuss without any preassumption which OI may be best for the IEMs...

 

[Joe Bloggs]

On a lighter note i think Joe should send Chris a leather case for the R6

Oh yes

You are right i would have given this a go from the start if they had 4.4mm balanced. However, the majority have 2.5mm cables, i know its just an adaptor but maybe they are catering to the majority.

That's what we believe to be the case at the moment too?

@Joe Bloggs Will the R6 be available in the UK?
What will be the estimated cost? Thanks

Our official position for now is that we have not negotiated any dealerships yet outside of Indiegogo and any such dealerships, when they would be signed, would not come into effect until after the Indiegogo shipments. Then too the MSRP would by e.g. 649USD for the stainless steel player a la carte or some pound equivalent of that in the UK. IOW, we would really, really recommend you just back us on Indiegogo now if you want the player

hi @Joe Bloggs , can I order the hiby r6 + case only? whenever I click get this perk and indiegogo, it is automatically continue to payment and can not add the case?

so it would be processed as two payments.. is it like this?

Yes... we will combine the shipments of course

 

[Rob F1UK]

Oh yes


That's what we believe to be the case at the moment too?


Our official position for now is that we have not negotiated any dealerships yet outside of Indiegogo and any such dealerships, when they would be signed, would not come into effect until after the Indiegogo shipments. Then too the MSRP would by e.g. 649USD for the stainless steel player a la carte or some pound equivalent of that in the UK. IOW, we would really, really recommend you just back us on Indiegogo now if you want the player


Yes... we will combine the shipments of course

Just backed the SS R6 from the UK. Oddly, if I logged into my Indiegogo account, it wouldn't let me complete the payment, I had to log out and do a Guest checkout to complete the order? I've also backed the Leather case, but that order didn't let me specify an address? I presume you will pick those up together (being the same address) and ship together @Joe Bloggs ?

Something to look forward in March now - hopefully UK customs won't be too mean when the time comes....

 

[marcusd]

On a lighter note i think Joe should send Chris a leather case for the R6

It's a nice case for sure

On a lighter note i think Joe should send Chris a leather case for the R6

It's a nice case

 

[PapaThrust]

of it:

The why: can be understood in the light of examining the situation in an analogous but contrasting market, that of loudspeaker amplifiers.
--------
The load: is standardized to a nominal impedance range from 4 to 8 ohms, a mere 100% variation range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: indisputable; loudspeaker woofers otherwise having a near flat frequency response (also indisputably desired in loudspeakers) inevitably have a big sharp impedance spike in the 100-200Hz range caused by mechanical resonance, causing loose, boomy bass independent of any room acoustics if left unchecked by a nonzero OI / low damping factor.
The safety: the somewhat hazardous step of connecting speaker cables to (possibly but not necessarily closely spaced) speaker posts needs only be performed once per installation, which could be once a year or so; nevertheless accidental shorting with the amplifier on and playing would be good enough to blow a fuse if not an opamp.

The headphones market, in contrast:
--------
The load: ranges from 8 ohm to 600 ohm (various Beyerdynamic classics, e.g.) nominal, a 7500% variatio range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: doubtful; flat measured response is not desirable in the first place (HRTF compensations being required) and various electroacoustic hacks are "required" * to produce a desirable frequency response (which itself is a moving target given normal individual variations), such hacks famously including adding output impedance purposefully (cf. Etymotic ER-4P/S with in-line resistance being part of the electroacoustic design)
*Or maybe one day the market could accept that digital equalization does a better job of this than any electroacoustics...
The safety: doubtful; standardized connections place exposed contacts a mere millimetre away from each other and some form of shorting is accepted as a matter of course each time you plug or unplug the earphones. Even if all direct hazards to equipment may be accounted for (which requires dedicated circuitry and parts in a "0-Z" design), the bare fact remains that the 8-ohm IEMs are orders of magnitude more sensitive per mW than the 600-ohm cans, and are fed 7500% more power by the 0-Z amplifier to boot. This if nothing else continues to pose a safety hazard for any customer who owns both kinds of headphones. If one were to, say, have a good head-banging session with a capable 0-Z amplifier and say a pair of Beyerdynamic DT880-600, leave them off for the night, go to work next morning with said amplifier and plug the Andromeda in, and forget to adjust the volume in the process... Anything from blown IEMs to temporary deafness may result

That was a technical discussion that went off the deep end ... the upshot on the other hand is simple: Given that the market of headphone audio is likely to continue to be populated with devices with various amounts of non-zero output impedance, devices with zero output impedance by definition lie at one extreme of the kinds of sounds that would be produced by devices on the market. As a earphone maker, it would make sense to design for optimal sound from a "middle-of-the-road" device, a device with middling output impedance, somewhere between 0 and the high end of the outdated 120 ohm standard and even higher impedance possible in loudspeaker amplifiers doubling as headphone outputs via a high series resistance in some home systems.

Not saying that this is what happens all the time, just that it may happen more often than you think.[/QUOTE]

If we are to speculate about earphone product design "blind"--headphone ports with appreciable output impedance are still quite common, and probably will continue to be for some time to come. We can talk about the why and the upshot of it:

The why: can be understood in the light of examining the situation in an analogous but contrasting market, that of loudspeaker amplifiers.
--------
The load: is standardized to a nominal impedance range from 4 to 8 ohms, a mere 100% variation range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: indisputable; loudspeaker woofers otherwise having a near flat frequency response (also indisputably desired in loudspeakers) inevitably have a big sharp impedance spike in the 100-200Hz range caused by mechanical resonance, causing loose, boomy bass independent of any room acoustics if left unchecked by a nonzero OI / low damping factor.
The safety: the somewhat hazardous step of connecting speaker cables to (possibly but not necessarily closely spaced) speaker posts needs only be performed once per installation, which could be once a year or so; nevertheless accidental shorting with the amplifier on and playing would be good enough to blow a fuse if not an opamp.

The headphones market, in contrast:
--------
The load: ranges from 8 ohm to 600 ohm (various Beyerdynamic classics, e.g.) nominal, a 7500% variatio range.
The SQ premise for 0 OI: doubtful; flat measured response is not desirable in the first place (HRTF compensations being required) and various electroacoustic hacks are "required" * to produce a desirable frequency response (which itself is a moving target given normal individual variations), such hacks famously including adding output impedance purposefully (cf. Etymotic ER-4P/S with in-line resistance being part of the electroacoustic design)
*Or maybe one day the market could accept that digital equalization does a better job of this than any electroacoustics...
The safety: doubtful; standardized connections place exposed contacts a mere millimetre away from each other and some form of shorting is accepted as a matter of course each time you plug or unplug the earphones. Even if all direct hazards to equipment may be accounted for (which requires dedicated circuitry and parts in a "0-Z" design), the bare fact remains that the 8-ohm IEMs are orders of magnitude more sensitive per mW than the 600-ohm cans, and are fed 7500% more power by the 0-Z amplifier to boot. This if nothing else continues to pose a safety hazard for any customer who owns both kinds of headphones. If one were to, say, have a good head-banging session with a capable 0-Z amplifier and say a pair of Beyerdynamic DT880-600, leave them off for the night, go to work next morning with said amplifier and plug the Andromeda in, and forget to adjust the volume in the process... Anything from blown IEMs to temporary deafness may result

That was a technical discussion that went off the deep end ... the upshot on the other hand is simple: Given that the market of headphone audio is likely to continue to be populated with devices with various amounts of non-zero output impedance, devices with zero output impedance by definition lie at one extreme of the kinds of sounds that would be produced by devices on the market. As a earphone maker, it would make sense to design for optimal sound from a "middle-of-the-road" device, a device with middling output impedance, somewhere between 0 and the high end of the outdated 120 ohm standard and even higher impedance possible in loudspeaker amplifiers doubling as headphone outputs via a high series resistance in some home systems.

Not saying that this is what happens all the time, just that it may happen more often than you think.

Joe, as a maker of state of the art, audiophile quality, portable DAP, would you not agree it would also make sense to design a player to accurately playback with state of the art portable iem’s ( low impedance tuned response) that are now rapidly becoming the norm? This is, in fact, what many of your competitors are doing and have already done. Also as I understand it, the impedance is more easily designed and controlled at the HO than multi ba iems, I think it’s no secret that some of the best sounding ones are actually happy accidents or experiments. Would it be safe to think manufacturers would of course design and build smooth even “middling “ impedance response multi ba if were reasonablely possible, affordable? Am I way off here?
The safety angle is a weak argument, and as already pointed out, there are far better ways to handle a careless users possible volume spike.
For me, it feels like Hiby made several leaps forward and one giant step backward simultaneously with the R6.

 

[scorp32]

Well, I just received word from Hiby, and...ouch. 10Ω output impedance(!)

I was not expecting that. I know from experience that will not behave well with my UM Merlins. I really wanted this guy, but that's just not a good spec for a portable. That's what the HiFiMan HM-602 had, and they didn't play well together at all (unsurprisingly, that's a multi-BA iem with 12Ω impedance). If you're looking to drive something like that, you might want to look elsewhere. If you have relatively high impedance cans, this will probably still be OK for you.

10 ohms?! My Andromeda says "hell no".

I'm noob on impedance. I use IEM's mostly and was wondering how my Tia Fourte or Noble K-10's or Westone W80 will do with this?? What impedance level should I be aiming for?

 

[HK_sends]

hi @Joe Bloggs , can I order the hiby r6 + case only? whenever I click get this perk and indiegogo, it is automatically continue to payment and can not add the case?

so it would be processed as two payments.. is it like this?

That's how it worked for me...two separate payments (there was no cart feature).

Cheers!
-HK sends

 

[Azirius]

@Hawaiibadboy
I know that you have a pair of iSine 20s, have you tried them with the R6? I hope they pair well! They’re my only pair of IEMs! I have full sized cans but they’re not practical while working!