Help with selecting a DAC

[mms6]

GREAT DAC would be the TASCAM US-122 mkII

 

[colinharding]

Quote:

Are you serious!  USB not there for audio???  I respect your opinion, but it is only that.  There are many very, very well respected dacs that offer the best sound available through their USB inputs not their coax inputs if they even have them.  Perhaps you should give one or two a listen.

 
USB was most certainly not originally intended for audio, it was designed to standardize the connection of computer peripherals; monitors, printer, keyboards, etc. I have a $4000 DAC with a 24bit 196khz async usb input...still doesn't sound as good as the COAX.  Granted the difference isn't night and day but it is enough for me to warrant the use of optical or COAX.  Yes, these are all my opinions and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here, just trying to offer honest advice based on my own experience.  After all, isn't that the foundation of the HeadFi community?  If you could suggest a few of these DACs I'll give them a try, but out of the twenty DACs or so that I've had or auditioned, I've been sorely disappointed by their USB implementation.  I wanted to like it, I mean hell, it's the most convenient connectivity option for computer audio but it just hasn't quite gotten there yet.  

 

[RonaldDumsfeld]

Check these guys out then Colin.
 
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_overview_firewire.php
 
This is what they say about themselves.
 
Quote:

RME is the only manufacturer not to use a third party USB or FireWire audio technology, but an own, self-developed Audio Core with an outstanding performance and uncompromising pro audio features. We´ve revolutioned and combined the technic with the unique RME features. TotalMix, ultra-low latencies down to one millisecond, including on-the-fly latency changes, support of multiple devices, samplerates up to 192 kHz and much more.

 
As far as I know they are still the only manufacturer who have worked directly with MicroSoft to get their s/w fully certified and hence permitted update access to to the MS audio kernel. So, if you like, it will root around in your PC, check it out and even optimise it for audio semi auto.
 
Not only that but most of their products come with an EQ and effects package you could take a degree using in using to it's full advantage. Even if you prefer a certain non transparent 'sound' why limit yourself to an always on hardware EQ when you could choose any colouration you like at the press of a button?

 

[colinharding]

Very interesting products, I'll certainly have to see if I can get my hands on one after a bit of research.  Never heard of these guys before.  How'd you come across them?

 

[bixby]

Quote:

 
USB was most certainly not originally intended for audio, it was designed to standardize the connection of computer peripherals; monitors, printer, keyboards, etc. I have a $4000 DAC with a 24bit 196khz async usb input...still doesn't sound as good as the COAX.  Granted the difference isn't night and day but it is enough for me to warrant the use of optical or COAX.  Yes, these are all my opinions and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here, just trying to offer honest advice based on my own experience.  After all, isn't that the foundation of the HeadFi community?  If you could suggest a few of these DACs I'll give them a try, but out of the twenty DACs or so that I've had or auditioned, I've been sorely disappointed by their USB implementation.  I wanted to like it, I mean hell, it's the most convenient connectivity option for computer audio but it just hasn't quite gotten there yet.  

One could argue that computers were never intended for audio, since they were developed to take care of tedious calculations and to become a mechanical calculator, yet today we love our computers for the processes they bring to enjoying our music.  Same might be said of USB.  It's original purpose may have been a bit different yet we now have the ability to use this standard to have our dac's clock control the timing of the data sent to it by the computer.  And many have confirmed through jitter measurements that this can be a good thing and one that is not available on standard coax spdif.  
 
As for your $4k dac and it's usb performance I can only wonder why your computers clock is doing a better job via coax.  And how are you getting the signal from your computer, since most do not have a spdif out?  Mind telling us what dac you use?
 
As for dacs to put on your listening shortlist that I have heard and sound good albeit all of them a bit different from each other:
 
Ayre Qb-9
Abbingdon Music Research DP-777
Wavelength Cosecant v3 USB
Blue Circle Audio 509 when fed via USB / Spdif Halide Bridge
 
 
Others that are good sounding through usb, though not sure if better via spdif optical or coax if they have it
 
Wyred for Sound dac2
 

[size=medium] Resonessance  Invicta[/size]

Lindeman usb dac
 
 
Ones that I did not like via usb:
Arcam rDac
Hegel HD10
Bryston BDA 1
MyTek Stereo192-DSD-DAC
Benchmark USB DAC
PS Audio PWD
Blue Circle 509 or 507 with USB
PS Audio DL3
Antelope Zodiac Gold
 
just my opinion and I am sure lots of folk will disagree

 

[colinharding]

Agreed, although many of the processes that we currently enjoy on our computers were back-doored for audio reproduction, unless you buy a dedicated media server.  A computer simply allows for the storage and playback of media, it is not meant to compete with dedicated audio equipment (nor should it as this is not a computer's main function).  You are watching Youtube, surfing the web, and listening to music on your computer; any one of these could arguably be the main function of the computer but the discourse is irrelevant due to a computer's intrinsic multitasking ability.  A transport does one thing, it plays CDs just as a turntable exists only to play LPs.  These sources have been streamlined for one task, not bogged down with extra convenience features.  The argument can be extrapolated for numerous instances.  While riding in a plane you can also watch a movie, is this feature the main function of the airplane?  No, its purpose is to move people from A to B but unless you actually go to a movie theater it is hard to see what you're missing from a dedicated venue or even look past the convenience of traveling and watching your favorite film.  IMHO what it boils down to is this, you can get an F1 car or you can get a mini van.  One is designed to be the paragon of its respective purpose and nothing else, while the other is designed to conveniently multitask but does not excel in any specific category. 
 
Regarding my computer's audio, I misspoke earlier.  I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning the USB vs COAX quality when using a computer as the source, USB will be better.  My COAX is coming from a SONOS ZP90 vs the USB coming from my computer so admittedly I'm not giving USB a fair fight.  The DAC I'm currently using is a Synthesis Matrix.  
 
Of the DACs you've mentioned above I've owned the Wyred for sound, Benchmark, PS audio, Bryston, Wavelength and Ayre.  I was not too impressed by any of them hence why I no longer have them.  They parallel the current audiophile sound, wonderfully detailed and spatially resolving however this ultra resolution is tonally unnatural and thin sounding.  Again this is just my opinion.  
 
If I had my choice I'd by an Audio Note DAC 5 Signature.  An 18bit DAC with no jitter reduction, no noise shaping, no oversampling, and no re-clocking whatsoever.  I auditioned this DAC against the Wavelength and Ayre and at best they sounded broken in comparison even with their newfangled async transfer, jitter control, etc.  My wallet is much too small to afford such a DAC unfortunately nor do I own an F1 car.  But hey, if you enjoy the current audiophile ear, by all means oblige yourself.  I'm not here to judge or coerce you (nor is the HeadFi community at large) I simply offer advice hoping to save your wallet from the abuse that mine has taken in this audio journey.  

 

[proton007]

I can say this, USB was and is designed to be a communication/data as well as power transfer bus.
From a technical standpoint, both USB and Coax have their advantages and disadvantages. If you've got the money, maybe you should get one that supports both, because you won't have either of them at all times. Some PCs/Laptops don't have optical out.

 

[bixby]

@colinharding:  Thanks for the followup. It is apparent you have a love of music and also that our ears are seeking slightly different things in the presentation of music.  I have read a few of your other posts regarding the matrix and understand where you are coming from.  I too had a Sonos and sold it within months because it did not sound as pleasing to me when compared to my computer or cd transport.  
 
That's why trying so many things seems to be the best way to hone in on what one likes.  It is interesting about dacs that we obsess so much on them in trying to eek out that last bit of performance.  And many of then are so close in sound that a simple cable swap can cause more audiophile reaction than a bevy of expensive dacs in a long listening session.  It seems you have found your cup of tea and it is great thing to have a satisfying system.  I too have given up the dac hunt (for now LOL) and prefer to explore the various tones offered by a simple tube swap in my preamp.
 
I'm sorry I helped detour this thread but have learned a few things on the way, now back to the threadstarter.
 
cheers

 

[RonaldDumsfeld]

Quote:

Never heard of these guys before.  How'd you come across them?

 
RME are an Industry Standard for interfaces. You have almost certainly bought recordings made on their gear.

 

[Rawdawg3234]

I've been looking for a good USB DAC for my woo amp. I listen to heavy metal and classical and my price range is $1000. I prefer the USB to iPod connection but any recommendations would be appreciated.

 

[bixby]

Quote:

I've been looking for a good USB DAC for my woo amp. I listen to heavy metal and classical and my price range is $1000. I prefer the USB to iPod connection but any recommendations would be appreciated.

There is no cable or way I know of to hook a USB dac to an ipod!

 

[colinharding]

Something like this maybe??  That's about the only one that I know of that acts as a DAC for your iDevice
 
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/products/HP-P1.shtml

 

[bixby]

Mr Harding:
 
Knowing your preferences you would run away from the Fostex like your hair was on fire

.  I remember hearing it at RMAF 2011, Truly thin and bright sounding dac.

 

[longbowbbs]

Quote:

Thanks again for the info, also just wanted to add that my price range is around $1200

I spent considerable time last week with the new Wadia 121. I was very impressed. Previously, my certain next DAC was going to be the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2, but now I am leaning toward the Wadia. (A bit less expensive) I was equally satisfied with them both and the sound was wonderful. One point to remember, most of the really great DAC's do have a very real burn in requirement of between 200 and 500+ hours. I know the Wadia is on the long side. So, what you hear with a new DAC in the show room may be a long way from what you are going to get eventually.

 

[colinharding]

Quote:

Mr Harding:
 
Knowing your preferences you would run away from the Fostex like your hair was on fire

.  I remember hearing it at RMAF 2011, Truly thin and bright sounding dac.

HAHAHAHA!!! Well I'll make sure to keep a fire extinguisher handy if I ever do listen to one 

   Rawdawg, do you have any other requirements?  I can recommend a few in that price range but I'm not sure what connectivity you are looking for, whether you're willing to buy used, 24 bit, etc.