[Deathbunny_SG]

First of all I would like to thank all of you for everything I have learned on this site so far. This is my first post here but I have spent a great deal of time on these forums researching the components for my first real headphone setup. I must say that even though I know a lot more about highend headphone audio then I did before I found this site that I am now more confused then ever about what components to pick

Here is a little info about what I listen to, my budget, and what features I (think) I want in my new system.

-Music
I listen to groups like Jack Johnson, DMB, John Butler Trio, Allman Brothers, The Dead, Clapton. I usualy prefer acoustic to electric and live recordings over studio.

-Source
My music is mostly purchased Itunes tracks and I would like to use my PC to be the music server.

-Budget
My budget is really pretty open. I would like to keep it <$3500 for the dac, amp and phones but that number isnt set in stone up or down either. I would be willing to increase the budget a good bit if the amp also includes the ability to drive a pair of desktop speakers (something like the harbeths at headroom) as well as the headphones since I would also like a nice set of book shelf speakers for those times when the roomies are not around. Like I said the budget is pretty open but I dont want to just throw away money because I can. If one system is half the cost of another and both are very close in performance I will prolly be picking the cheaper one.

-Requirements
I am pretty open to ballanced or SE, tube or SS. I do want to buy right the first time and plain on having this system for a long time to come with maybe the exception of picking up a new set of phones from time to time. I do want something that is available to order within a month, I dont want to wait months for something custom built or that isn't availble yet. I am not against buying slightly used as long as it is from someone reputable. Unless the amp can support bookshelf speakers aswell then I would like outputs on the dac or amp to feed a seperate amp for them so I dont need to buy 2 different dacs.

-Products that have cought my eye so far but im not commited to and havent heard or seen any of them IRL. I assume all of these are good products by what I have read but I want everything to play nicely with the other components in the system and without being able to test the different combos its hard to pick the parts that will sound best together.
Stello line
Headroom desktop line either with max module or balanced
Woo Audio amps
Headamp GS-x
Grace M902
Cary Audio Xciter (the one that got me thinking I could get one amp and use for both speakers and phones)


- I would also like a seperate set of stand alone(wont be amped) phones for work. I will not have the ability to hook up to a usb port and devices like an ipod or amp would be very difficult prolly not even possible to get in and out esp if they can connect to a pc in anyway. What would be a decent set of phones that could just plug into a lineout of a soundcard and still sound decent so I can have some tunes while working?

Thats all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance for any help and let me know if there is any info I left out that would help u help me spend my $

Basicly if you were to start over from scratch knowing everything you know now and had my requirements/budget what would you pick and why.

 

[SR-71Panorama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathbunny_SG /img/forum/go_quote.gif -Source My music is mostly purchased Itunes tracks and I would like to use my PC to be the music server.

**buzzer sound**

You'll want to upgrade the music before dropping all kinds of coin on gear. Go for lossless audio in FLAC or ALAC (apple) if using a PC. Otherwise, whats the point

 

[Deathbunny_SG]

I was under the impression Itunes files were Lossless as well. Guess it will be back to the cd store I go. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[bdh]

Don't be silly.
My headphone rigs make iTunes bought music sound great. My headphones, amps, and sources make a MUCH bigger difference in sound and enjoyment than iTunes vs. CD file differences.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Figure out the headphones you want first. Go by the music you listen to and the sound signature you prefer. Or maybe get a few headphones. With your budget, you could pick up the HD-650, K-701, DT880, and a RS-1 to cover pretty much everything. Or maybe get a K-1000 or other specialty headphone that might interest you. But spend a lot of time on the headphones because they're probably 70% of what you hear.

Next, find an amp suitable to driving your headphone(s).

Then worry about the source. AAC files aren't that bad - I like them on the iPod with my Grados and IEMs. Get an affordable DAC for your collection, but put the bulk of your money into headphones and a quality amp. Those are the majority of your listening experience.

Also, be sure to consider used gear. Keep an eye on the For Sale Forum, Audiogon and eBay. You'll save up to 50% or more buying used. Most gear holds up well and is cared for, so don't worry about buying used.

 

[Mellow Mushroom]

how about a K1000 with the Beta

 

[Deathbunny_SG]

Looks like the K1000 has been discontinued since 06? I dont mind buying a used amp or dac but phones have to be new. I have this thing about sharing phones with other people. I have been leaning twards the HD-650 but mainly because the cables are easly replacable, prolly not the best thing to pick a set of phones on. I just realised my buddy sells Cary audio so I might be able to get a good price (depending on the markup) on an xciter but I dont know how soon they will be available, cant find much info on them yet.

 

[grawk]

The 650s are good headphones. With the right amp they really shine.

With a $3500 budget, looking to go pc audio, figure $350 for the new 650s, $200 or so for a good cable, used (Stefan Audio Art and Enigma cables are my favorite, others like the APS cables, but I haven't heard those).

I like eddiecurrent's amps with HD650s (for tube) and beta22 and balanced m^3 (both DIY, so you'd have to find a builder) solid state, and I've heard good things about the luxman.

The variable will be the source. I have owned the apogee minidac and CEC DA53 and liked those quite a bit, and they have usb options (tho the apogee is discontinued at this point). They're both around $1000. I'm sure others will have recommendations as well.

 

[Happy Camper]

DACs with 192k files should sound fine unless the recording is bad. I'm listening to 128k through an older dac and k701s and get the full details of the artist personal noises (shuffling their score sheets, licking their lips and their tongues lifting from their cheeks. I can hear the feet shuffle in the quiet parts[The Temptations- Just My Imagination]) You can work on re-ripping cds once you have a unit worthy of the effort.

This year will be a good time for new products and solutions for pc audio. Empirical Audio will be releasing a new usb DAC/pre/hp amp that is worthy of review. It has a built in hp amp that would save you an amp investment as well as USB/I2S/Coax inputs and one rca and one balanced outputs. Another unit of similar stature is the Red Wine Isabellina. By no means are these the only ones but are meant as a starter to learn the latest technologies.

Since you want new hps, I'd recommend going to a meet or if you are in a major metro area, a retail store that carry many maker's products like a Guitar Center. They may not have the model you want but they do have several maker's product to at least determine your taste. Once you know who you want, hit the net for best pricing. I've seen new prices on a K701 range from $242-500. As much as I want to support our sponsors, they are pricey.

A couple of hps will serve you better than trying to find the one all rounder. Your music would suggest a Grado for your blues, acoustic rock etc. Grado is also a good choice for non amped listening. I use my RS-1 and ipod a lot. Though they do sound better amped, they satisfy my needs for casual listening. If Grado is your choice, the RA-1 (used) would be a cheap amp alternative. Of course these headphones aren't the only ones worthy of review but this is what I have the most experience with.

I suspect the questions will gather many options and possibly confuse you more. Of major consideration is the sound quality of the hp amps in these dacs. I have only heard average reviews of the hp amp in most dacs. Because the mentioned units have a solid reputation in our headphone community, I think they know our needs and will have put more efforts into their amps.

A dac/speaker amp/hps with a well built pr. of ICs and a decent power cord can be had for your price range once you decide on your hps. If your need for an amp to drive both hps and speakers from one unit is a must, you will possibly need to have it built. There are units with your desire that come up from time to time but it might be a wait to find. A combo unit with an inexpensive receiver or amp to drive the speakers would do fine.

Good luck on your pursuit and please keep your progress in this thread so others can see how you made your decisions and perhaps use it to find their own systems.

Empirical Audio Overdrive USB DAC/Pre

USB digital to analog converter, Pre and Head amp

The Overdrive USB DAC is a breakthrough audio product. It incorporates our excellent low-jitter USB interface technology and breaks new ground for D/A converter technology. The Overdrive design philosophy is “less is more”, with one of the simplest analog paths ever devised. The Overdrive provides solutions for the three most important aspects of digital sources: Jitter, D/A noise/distortion and volume control noise/distortion. This high-performance triple solution is unprecedented and delivers a totally new sound quality level.

The Overdrive is a non-upsampling DAC (no ASRC) that has an ultra-simple analog signal path, reducing background noise and harmonic distortion to unprecedented levels. It incorporates a preamp function that has never been tried in ANY audio product before. This preamp function adds no devices whatsoever to the signal path, leaving it simple and ultra-low noise. It has selectable digital filters that allow one to tailor the sound to your personal taste. You can effectively eliminate them if you want.

The sound of the Overdrive is simply indescribable and utterly magical. The clarity is unlike anything you have heard before, particularly driving amps directly. Other DAC’s sound muddy in comparison. The bass is tight and the detail and imaging is more than first-rate, it’s breathtaking. Drums are rendered with more realism than any other DAC is capable of. The leading and trailing edges and harmonics of percussion, strings and woodwinds are delivered with true realism. Even with this level of detail and dynamics, it still gets vocals right. The Overdrive USB DAC resets the bar for the term “accuracy” in digital to analog conversion.

The Overdrive can be powered from the included AC supply or from a Battery Supply that we will offer in 2009. The DAC has a high-current DC input connector only, so it requires a separate supply chassis. It has three digital inputs, USB, S/PDIF Coax and I2S. It has no analog inputs. We put the I2S input on the Overdrive so that it could be driven from the I2S output on our Pace-Car 2 reclocker. The Pace-Car 2 reduces jitter for many types of devices, including computers and WiFi servers. The I2S interface allows the master clock to be closer to the D/A chip inside the Overdrive DAC, reducing clock jitter even more.




Overdrive Technology:

The performance of the Overdrive DAC is a result of several innovative design breakthroughs:

1.Low jitter USB interface module
2.Ultra-Simple Analog Path
3.D/A Volume Control
4.Ultra-Linear Output Stage
5.Fully Balanced Analog Path

Low jitter USB interface module:
This USB module is the same device that we use in our popular Off-Ramp 3 USB converter. This is a 3rd generation USB converter and rates #1 against all other converters on the market. Very low jitter, no drivers or ASIO to load, and it converts 16/44.1 to 24/44.1 automatically. This enables bit-perfect playback from XP or Vista PC’s and allows for 8-bits of volume control without any loss in resolution. USB also handles up to 24/96.

Ultra-Simple Analog Path:
The analog path consists of an I/V stage (op-amp) driving an output transistor through a coupling cap. There is a small damping resistor on the output as well. All stages are run Class-A, so it gets a bit warm. The I/V stage cannot be passive, it must be an op-amp, so the design is optimized for this and the op-amp is carefully selected.

D/A Volume Control:

Volume control is accomplished without any added parts to the signal path. It is not an entirely digital or entirely analog volume control. It is a little of each actually. The volume is adjusted by changing the behavior of the D/A conversion. It does NOT adjust attenuation of a resistor divider, change the gain of an amplifier stage or eliminate bits from the digital data. All of these add noise and/or distortion to the signal.

Ultra-Linear Output Stage:

The output stage is a single transistor in Class-A mode. It is well known that this simple configuration results in some compression distortion, but also sounds most natural. In order to effectively eliminate this distortion, we incorporated a compensation circuit in the Overdrive. The output stage impedance is low enough and the power output high enough to drive most headphones easily, so we provide an adapter. It can drive either normal or balanced headphones.

Fully Balanced Analog Path:

There are 4 analog paths, all identical. They connect from the D/A converter chip to the outputs. All 4 are used for the balanced outputs, 2 of the 4 are used for the Single-Ended outputs.


Specifications:
Inputs:

1.USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 from Mac or PC, up to 5 meter USB cable
2.S/PDIF coax
3.I2S (Empirical standard RJ-45)
4.DC power (+12VDC, -18VDC, +18VDC)

Outputs:

1.RCA left and right channels
2.XLR left and right channels

Controls:

1.Input Select
2.De-emphasis Select
3.Digital Filter Select – High, Medium, Low
4.Line/Volume Select
5.Volume knob

Included:
1.Overdrive DAC
2.5 meter USB cable
3.AC power supply
4.CDROM with PC installation software including SRC upsamplers**

See pricing, more details and direct sales at: http://www.empiricalaudio.com

*USB Firmware licensed from CEntrance **SRC licensed from Mega Nerd Pty Ltd., Australia


Red Wine Audio Isabellina

 

[Deathbunny_SG]

Thanks for the info so far. The Rs1 was a pair that I didnt even look at (for some reason I didnt think you could buy them anymore) but after doing some reading about them I decided to order a pair. Now to find a nice amp and dac to go with them. I would prefer something that would play other phones as well as this prolly wont be my only pair so the ra1 prolly isnt the best bet but if I find one cheap enough I will pick it up on the side to try it with them. I might even be able to pull off using that combo at work but im not to sure on the sound leakage out of the Rs1. I will have coworkers around that I have to be considerate of.

I stumbled across the http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/glo...mp-one-287709/ last night and it has me very interested. I know it doesnt exactly fit in the high end section but the amp part of it is getting very good reviews and it will run a set of high ef bookshelf speakers OR a pair of phones and that is a huge + for me. The built in dac is basicly unusable. They are comming out with a new version this month with a different dac that is supposed to be better though. The price on the amp is low enough that I could add a standalone dac if the new built in one isnt to my liking. Not sure if this amp would be a good match to the grados though.

 

[Sherwood]

The amp you want at your budget is a Beta 22. It is a phenomenal, absolute top of the line Headphone and speaker amp. It can built moderately, or extremely maxed, depending on your budget and preferences. Go ahead and go balanced -- it's worth it for when you eventually try Sennheiser HD650s.

It is DIY, so will need to either buy one used on this forum, or find someone to build you one. Good options abound for builders here, though I'm not sure who's currently making them.

Expect around $1200 for this, and don't expect to find anything better for less.

 

[Borat]

If you bought the RS-1, just pick up an Apogee Mini-DAC and you're done. I think the Mini-DAC feeding the RS-1 right out of the headphone output sounds good. No separate headphone amp necessary. Great synergy here.

Then the XLR outputs will be free to feed a pre-amp/integrated amp to your speakers.

 

[plaidplatypus]

For office use I suggest closed audio-technica headphones as they are easily driven by anything. The down side is that they may draw unwanted attention.

 

[fatcat28037]

You're talking about spending some serious Bucks. Are there any retailers in you area where you could audition gear? Or maybe a local Head-Fi meet where you could listen to equipment?
How about getting in touch with a local/not-to-far-away Head-Fi member who would let you listen to some gear.
Where do you live? Your musical tastes are very near mine, I have a Marantz CD5001> woo 3+>RS-1, plus a bunch of other phones. The RS-1 is my favorite.

 

[Deathbunny_SG]

Lots of great advice and sugestions, thanks guys.

The RS1's got here today and WOW. They are only running off my ipod right now but they already sound better then any HP I have ever heard. I cant wait to hear them with a proper source and amp!

Since the RA1 is supposed to be such a good match I ordered one of the CMOY diy amps off ebay to give a try until I can decide on a real amp. I also picked up a Headroom Micro Ultra Dac with upgraded psu on the for sale forums here. The amp and source should be here early in the week and I will let you know how I make out with them.