[kool bubba ice]

Live & music engineered/mastered/recorded in a studio is really different.. Hard to compare the two.. Some live events do add to the bass for more emphasis like Erik stated.. It would be very, very difficult for any headphone to duplicate a live event with flawless accuracy.
 
In the end, if headphones vibrate while listening to a recorded jazz session that would NOT be neutral  IMO.. So, are the only neutral headphones with real visceral bass impact the HP1?

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

It depends what kind of live event you attend. You get chest-thumping bass at a lot of rock concerts because the bass has been boosted. You get the low notes without a thump with classical and acoustic jazz. You hear the low notes, but no thump. Some headphones get that right and some add to the bass. I disagree that all of the neutral headphones attenuate bass - some years ago, someone demonstrated that the K-501 reproduces all the way down.

I think this very illogical.  So you're saying that every rock band boosts their bass in concert and not a single rock band boosts the bass on their CD's (thus making the bass-light phones the neutral ones)?  That just doesn't make any sense.  Bands (the majority anyways) chose how their CD's sound and how their concerts sound as well.  Also putting sound aside, what are the chances that the most bass light headphones out there are flat?  Flat is a middle ground, between the K501 and the Denons/HD650/Bose/Beats.  There is no way you could convince me that the K501 has accurate bass.  They're beautiful headphones, but they make everything sound light and airy.  I wouldn't believe in a million years that Led Zeppelin is supposed to sound light and airy.  Or Bob Marley.  Or Rage Against the Machine. 
 
"I disagree that all of the neutral headphones attenuate bass".  Of course they don't.  That's like someone asking whether McDonalds Big Macs are healthy, and saying "healthy food is healthy".  What I said was "neutral sounding" as in the phones often referred to as flat. 

 

[lejaz]

I don't see how live music is a good reference, since it can vary a whole lot from one live event to another....at least with amplified music. I was at a live blues concert last year and the bass was mixed way back. Maybe live classical music would be a better reference because there's no amplification to play with, AFAIK. My experience with live jazz has definitely been on the bass light side. FWIW, I listened to the remastered "Abby Road" by the Beatles and there's tons of bass with the k702. I thought it was almost over the top. But that's just subjectivity speaking. I wasn't in the studio when the album was recorded (kinda wish I was though).

 

[rhythmdevils]

I love the quote in your sig lejaz!

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

I love the quote in your sig lejaz!

It's ironic isn't it... The corrupt politicians, the wall street moguls, and corporate execs with their several million dollar salaries are generally considered the epitome of sanity....until the time that their corruption is exposed and they are carted off to jail. Then their friends and neighbors shake their heads and go,  "How did it happen...he seemed like such a great guy?". Sorry if I strayed too much from OP...

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

I think this very illogical.  So you're saying that every rock band boosts their bass in concert and not a single rock band boosts the bass on their CD's (thus making the bass-light phones the neutral ones)?  That just doesn't make any sense.  Bands (the majority anyways) chose how their CD's sound and how their concerts sound as well.  Also putting sound aside, what are the chances that the most bass light headphones out there are flat?  Flat is a middle ground, between the K501 and the Denons/HD650/Bose/Beats.  There is no way you could convince me that the K501 has accurate bass.  They're beautiful headphones, but they make everything sound light and airy.  I wouldn't believe in a million years that Led Zeppelin is supposed to sound light and airy.  Or Bob Marley.  Or Rage Against the Machine. 
 
"I disagree that all of the neutral headphones attenuate bass".  Of course they don't.  That's like someone asking whether McDonalds Big Macs are healthy, and saying "healthy food is healthy".  What I said was "neutral sounding" as in the phones often referred to as flat. 

I can't generalize about every rock band.  It's just that it seems that there's a divide between headphones that do electronically amplified bass well and those that do acoustic bass well.  The T1 sounded really good with electronic bass, but I didn't like it at all with classical, because the low end sounded like it was overemphasized.  Headphones that sound perfect with an acoustic jazz set often are described as "bass light" with rock or electronica.
 
And I'll try to dig up the thread with the K-501 measurements for you.  They really do produce bass all the way down, accurately.  I always found them just about right with kettle drums and the big brass.
 
The better measure of whether a can is flat or not is the frequency response.  You have to measure them.  The problem is that everyone thinks the flat ones are bass light.  For me, it's like adding salt.  Some people are so used to having heavy amounts of salt in their food that taking it out makes food taste wrong.  People are so used to overdone bass that anything that isn't overdone sounds wrong.

 

[Acix]

Does days any commercial CD (live or studio) get mastering, the only way to listen to live is if the live was recorded direct to DAT or analog tape. As far as flat FR goes... no FR will be over power, the AKG's still support this theory : )

 

[kool bubba ice]

Yes, we are accustomed to big bass, so the more accurate bass headphones sound bass lite.. I think this has been imprinted in our brains & ears from our first stereo system to our first headphone.... It's a society thing.. Bass equals better.. To me, bass should change significantly based on the genre & how it was recorded.. That's a flat & neutral headphone IMO.. I won't get into sub bass, mid bass, etc.. Never understood the term sub bass since sub means below.. Are we talking about the lower octaves? Bass we don't hear but can feel?? I think bass along with everything else here gets over dissected. I even get deep bass out of my 'bass lite' DT48 with certain recording.. It's going down by JOC is a great IE.. Geto Boys greatest hits with my upgraded GP.. Same deal..Bass guitar is far from thin sounding. With rock & acoustics it's not as upfront or prominent.. But R&B & hip hop.. Oh, yeah.. Again, we are looking for a chameleon. If a headphone always has a strong low end or great impact regardless of the recording, it's the sonic characteristic of the headphone, which says to me, the headphones bass isn't very transparent..
 
Quote:

I can't generalize about every rock band.  It's just that it seems that there's a divide between headphones that do electronically amplified bass well and those that do acoustic bass well.  The T1 sounded really good with electronic bass, but I didn't like it at all with classical, because the low end sounded like it was overemphasized.  Headphones that sound perfect with an acoustic jazz set often are described as "bass light" with rock or electronica.
 
And I'll try to dig up the thread with the K-501 measurements for you.  They really do produce bass all the way down, accurately.  I always found them just about right with kettle drums and the big brass.
 
The better measure of whether a can is flat or not is the frequency response.  You have to measure them.  The problem is that everyone thinks the flat ones are bass light.  For me, it's like adding salt.  Some people are so used to having heavy amounts of salt in their food that taking it out makes food taste wrong.  People are so used to overdone bass that anything that isn't overdone sounds wrong.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Not only am I looking for a flat FR but I don't want sibilance problems.

 
Then it would be the Phiaton MS400. It would be impossible to have any sibilance problems with these.
 
Only caveat is that you could not own (or listen to) any other headphones. The MS400 sounds awful when coming from any other headphone (other than the Beyerdynamic DT411). Conversely, other headphones sound awful when coming off the MS400.
 
They've cured the problem inherent in 99% of other dynamic phones but created their own unique problem in the process. Headphones are madness.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

I can't generalize about every rock band.  It's just that it seems that there's a divide between headphones that do electronically amplified bass well and those that do acoustic bass well.  The T1 sounded really good with electronic bass, but I didn't like it at all with classical, because the low end sounded like it was overemphasized.  Headphones that sound perfect with an acoustic jazz set often are described as "bass light" with rock or electronica.  
And I'll try to dig up the thread with the K-501 measurements for you.  They really do produce bass all the way down, accurately.  I always found them just about right with kettle drums and the big brass.
 
The better measure of whether a can is flat or not is the frequency response.  You have to measure them.  The problem is that everyone thinks the flat ones are bass light.  For me, it's like adding salt.  Some people are so used to having heavy amounts of salt in their food that taking it out makes food taste wrong.  People are so used to overdone bass that anything that isn't overdone sounds wrong.

I just don't agree and I don't see why there would be any difference btwn acoustic or amplified bass.  If a headphone only sounds good with some genres it is because it is not flat.  The K240DF/K501/K701 don't sound good with rock music because they are not flat- they don't have enough lower mids/bass presence.  Headphones like the HD600, HP1000, etc- headphones that find the middle ground in regards to bass, mids and treble- sound good with all genres because they have flat response.  (some might say the HP1000 doesn't have the soundstage needed for classical but that's another matter). 
 
I don't understand why the bass heavy coloration gets so much attention and hate on head-fi, but none of the other colorations even get acknowledged.  We don't call people treble heads or bass-phobic or whatever.  So I like to just throw this side into the mix whenever there's one of these theads

 

[Uncle Erik]

Do you believe in objective measurements? If something measures flat, but some people think it is "bass light," does that mean that the measurement was wrong?

 

[moodyrn]

rhythmdevils's point makes a lot more sense. If a headphone was truly flat, it would sound good no matter what genre you listened to. I know some music is recorded with an emphasis on the lower frequency, but a truly flat headphone wouldn't dial back on those frequencies. Also there is some music that's recorded that don't have an emphasis on the lower frequencies, and a headphone with a flat frequency response would add any bass as well. A lot of what are so called "flat or neutral headphone don't display whatever is presented in the music. Yes a lot of people have come to expect more bass than what should be there, but if that bass is present in the music a flat headphone would display it as well. So a truly flat headphone would sound good no matter what type of music you listen to it with. Also I never get caught up in objective measurements. They don't always translate to what a headphone would sound like.

 

[EYEdROP]

Flat frequency response is the goal of loudspeakers in a room, not headphones.  
 
With headphones, the driver is a very short distance to your ear. This creates acoustical problems within the ear canal itself. The frequency response of the headphone is tweaked to correct these ear canal resonances or to mask them, as well as create the general sonic signature. It seems like all headphones have peaky highs and a midbass hump to simulate what a loudspeaker should sound like at a distance. Even the DT48 does this to an extent. It is necessary simply because of the acoustical situation of headphones.
 
As far as bass goes, again you have problems with the driver being too close to the ear. Your body does not feel bass with headphones because they are 2 tiny speakers strapped to your head. So manufacturers have to boost the bass to compensate for lack of slam, which always colors the rest of the frequencies.
 
The uneven frequency response of headphones is necessary to compensate for the acoustical environment they are in. 
 
To me, there is no flat headphone. But there are uncolored headphones. 

 

[kool bubba ice]

So when companies label their headphones as flat they are lying to us? Measurements become meaningless? Cause audio will always be subjective in the end.. If what you say is true, there's no such thing as a flat headphone by a long shot. Cause I know of no headphone you just mentioned.. One that perfectly gets the frequencies/bass just right regardless of what is being played.
 
Quote:

rhythmdevils's point makes a lot more sense. If a headphone was truly flat, it would sound good no matter what genre you listened to. I know some music is recorded with an emphasis on the lower frequency, but a truly flat headphone wouldn't dial back on those frequencies. Also there is some music that's recorded that don't have an emphasis on the lower frequencies, and a headphone with a flat frequency response would add any bass as well. A lot of what are so called "flat or neutral headphone don't display whatever is presented in the music. Yes a lot of people have come to expect more bass than what should be there, but if that bass is present in the music a flat headphone would display it as well. So a truly flat headphone would sound good no matter what type of music you listen to it with. Also I never get caught up in objective measurements. They don't always translate to what a headphone would sound like.

 

[moodyrn]

Quote:

So when companies label their headphones as flat they are lying to us?
 

 

 
It's called marketing. No there are not any headphones that are completely flat. If it was, it would be the perfect headphone and we all(well we should) know there is no perfect headphone. Now some headphones are better than others at achieving that goal.