[High_Q]

HD650 destroys sibilance.

 

[Sonic Atrocity]

Quote:

I think there's a bit more to lack of colouration (yay Canada) than just a relatively flat frequency response.  I've had quite a few cans with a relatively flat frequency response, and they all sound completely different:
 
Charteroak SP-1 (detailed, delicate, fast)
Pro 750 (cold, analytical, snappy)
Pioneer Monitor 10 (indescribable)
Beyer DT480 (crystal clear, smooth, peppy)
Fostex T50RP (warm, smooth, almost detached from the music)
 
Beyond frequency response, I think we find neutrality in what fits our hearing the best.  If you are able to, I'd recommend listening to a few pairs of relatively neutral headphones with music that you're very familiar with.  You should be able to settle into a pair that sounds just right to you.
 
In terms of headphones that can be really revealing about the source--that's a dangerous game to play.  A lot of songs these days are mastered not to sound perfect to the band and producer, but to sound decent when heavily compressed and played on the radio.  The more revealing headphones become, the more painful that music gets.
 
Before you start seeking out the most accurate headphones you can find, here's a quick test for you to take on.  Get yourself a copy of Foobar if you don't have it, then set up a peak meter.  Play a song from your ten favourite albums.  Watch for albums that have been heavily compressed (you'll know because they will sit at the peak (0db) line pretty much the whole song.  If most of your music is compressed, you might not want too much of a clear window into what the recording really sounds like.
 
While I haven't got my pair of DT48 in yet, the 480 is remarkably revealing.  You hear things like the piano bench squeaking, to an extent I haven't heard anywhere else.  That said, you might be quite happy with the Pro 750 once they are Kees modded, as long as you like that cold, clinical sound.  If you get an amp that can feed them properly, the Fostex T50RP is a pretty good introduction to the studio sound, with that warmth that makes them a bit more forgiving with bad recordings.

You jerk!

 You totally threw a wrench into my train of thought. Seriously though, thank you! I appreciate the insight. All of my music is lossless ALAC (converted from FLAC). So, as for the Foobar/peakmeter test I don't know if that will work (will it?). As for producers/artists making recordings that are intended to be listened to in a compressed format (ie: for radio play)... is that usually just with bad pop music? Would this apply to say... NIN, and Radiohead? I'd hope not. I also listen to some underground metal and whatnot. So, I am hoping that I can at least find fidelity there.

 

[lejaz]

 
Quote:

You jerk!

 You totally threw a wrench into my train of thought. Seriously though, thank you! I appreciate the insight. All of my music is lossless ALAC (converted from FLAC). So, as for the Foobar/peakmeter test I don't know if that will work (will it?). As for producers/artists making recordings that are intended to be listened to in a compressed format (ie: for radio play)... is that usually just with bad pop music? Would this apply to say... NIN, and Radiohead? I'd hope not. I also listen to some underground metal and whatnot. So, I am hoping that I can at least find fidelity there.

 
Yes, you can still do the peak meter test. The kind of compression which that test will reveal is compression of the audio signal that's done in the studio. That is very different from the compression of the digital file to make an mp3. The best music to judge the 'neutrality'/flatness of a headphone is classical or acoustic jazz, IMO. They won't be overly compressed in the studio. Plus, if you listen to acoustic instruments you can judge how well the tonality and timbre is reproduced. In other words, how well a headphone reproduces the sound of an acoustic piano, trumpet, etc. With electronic instruments you are pretty much in the dark.
 
oops, I see I forgot to update my signature with the dt48....and I'm a card carrying member of the dt48 fan club. My apologies to the other charter members

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

Its funny that all of us DT48 users reported here. 
 
DT48 +1.

 


 
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It's our duty.

 

Just as lejaz said, it's how human hearing works. Our ears are less sensitive to bass frequencies at lower volumes, so you may want to compensate for that. I can't say if an amp is really required; I'm very happy with my 8 Ohm DT 48 unamped, but I don't have an amp to refer to.

 

 
Quote:Originally Posted by kool bubba ice 



Lets be honest.. This was planned.. Flyers were sent out weeks before the thread was even started..
 
You guys are too funny, lol!
 

 

[Sonic Atrocity]

Quote:

 
 
Yes, you can still do the peak meter test. The kind of compression which that test will reveal is compression of the audio signal that's done in the studio. That is very different from the compression of the digital file to make an mp3. The best music to judge the 'neutrality'/flatness of a headphone is classical or acoustic jazz, IMO. They won't be overly compressed in the studio. Plus, if you listen to acoustic instruments you can judge how well the tonality and timbre is reproduced. In other words, how well a headphone reproduces the sound of an acoustic piano, trumpet, etc. With electronic instruments you are pretty much in the dark.
 
oops, I see I forgot to update my signature with the dt48....and I'm a card carrying member of the dt48 fan club. My apologies to the other charter members

Hmm, I am not familiar with the studio compression that you speak of. I think I have an idea as to what it may be. Would you mind explaining it to me, please? 
 

 

[joelpearce]

I've also seen it referred to as "brickwalling" or "the loudness wars".
 
Basically, when a group is recorded, there's a naturally wide dynamic range between the loudest and softest sounds.  Soft passages and instruments are quite quiet, but a few moments are quite loud.  From an audiophile perspective, this is a good thing.  Dynamic range creates variety and contrast, which opens up musicality and drama to the recording.
 
But as DVD has taught us, dynamic range can also be a liability.  A movie mix that sounds great with five full-range speakers and a subwoofer can have almost inaudible dialogue.  Sometimes, on a lousy system, you find yourself turning the volume up during dialogue and down during action scenes.
 
There's a second issue as well, though.  The human brain initially detects volume as quality, and tends to pay more attention to loud noises than to soft noises.
 
So, music producers found a solution.  If they compress the dynamic range (by making the soft instruments and parts louder and making the loud parts softer), everything becomes more audible on lousy systems and you can ultimately make everything equally loud, just under the clipping point, which makes it louder than other songs around it on the radio.  After all, under this philosophy, louder=better.
 
Producers have been using compression for decades, but it's recently gotten way out of hand.  Many new albums sound terrible on a high quality pair of speakers or headphones that can handle the dynamic range, because compression has several ugly side effects:
 
1. contrast creates drama, and compression is a contrast killing machine
2. high compression can create clipping and other audio problems (listen to Duffy's Rockferry on a decent pair of headphones to hear this).
3. The naturally loud instruments used in rock and pop are loud for a reason.  Snares are supposed to slap you upside the head, and a kickdrum is supposed to have a satisfying "oomph".  If everything else is as loud as the snare, the song loses its punch.
 
As you do your peak meter test, listen to what the level of compression does for the sound.  For a real picture of what it does, find yourself some really compressed albums, then compare them to some properly mastered albums (I recommend the self-title Rage Against the Machine, even if you don't like the music).
 
Keep in mind that dB isn't a linear scale, which means you get double the volume every time you add about 3dB, and you get half volume every time it drops 3dB.  A good recording will often have dips of about 20dB, which means the loudest peaks are about 100 times louder than the quietest sounds you can hear.

 

[joelpearce]

Quote:

I have both the 480 & DT48.. The 480 is more musical for sure.. The DT48 more detailed & resolving by a good margin, depending on the era & type of DT48.. Both mid ranges are very good, but the DT48 is a level above it..Could just be preference..
 

 

I'm not trying to say otherwise--I'm just still waiting for my DT48 to arrive, and the 480 is pretty darn neutral as well.  My opinion could change dramatically early next week.  I won't know what my preference is until I can compare them.

 

[lejaz]

jp explained it very well. It's compression of the audio signal...squashing the loud parts to make them the same volume/level as the soft parts and then bringing the level of the whole song up to just below clipping. In most music designed for radio play everyone is doing it. It's like each person is yelling in order to be heard above everyone else. Once the yelling starts, you have to yell yourself in order to be heard. Kinda dumb, plus it destroys a lot of the feeling in the music to compress the dynamic range so much. Data compression to make an mp3 is a totally different issue.
Quote:

Hmm, I am not familiar with the studio compression that you speak of. I think I have an idea as to what it may be. Would you mind explaining it to me, please? 
 

 

[kool bubba ice]

No biggie... I like the 480, but don't find them very neutral IMO.. There seems to be a added sheen or glaze to the instruments & vocals.. There's a unique colorization to them. Mid range is 2nd best I heard from a Beyers headphone.. I just find the DT48 mid range to better then for vocal authenticity, detail, & life like clarity.. The 480 mid range is more emotional & aggressive IMO..Hides the flaws, maybe better air & warmth around the vocalist.. I need to get mine repaired..
Quote:

I'm not trying to say otherwise--I'm just still waiting for my DT48 to arrive, and the 480 is pretty darn neutral as well.  My opinion could change dramatically early next week.  I won't know what my preference is until I can compare them.

 

[Acix]

For flat with low sibilance the Fostex's will do great job, I also can recommend you the K-240MKll and the K-271MKll.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

A lot of headphones boost the bass, because most people have come to expect to hear the bass overemphasized these days. 

And most "flat sounding" headphones remove bass and add treble so they sound "clear".  People have to ask for "flat" and "not sibilant" in the same sentence because head-fi's notion of flat has gotten very confused with "clarity" over the years.

 

[moodyrn]

Quote:

And most "flat sounding" headphones remove bass and add treble so they sound "clear".  People have to ask for "flat" and "not sibilant" in the same sentence because head-fi's notion of flat has gotten very confused with "clarity" over the years.

 I completely agree. A lot of people consider bass light headphones as flat or neutral. Bass light cans isn't anymore neutral than a headphone that has an emphasized bass. When you go to a live recording, everything is there(bass, mids, etc). Also when you go to a live concert, there is "a lot" of bass energy. Bass is part(and the most important) part of the freqency spectrum. If there are any music majors out there they will comfirm when the professor show you a diagram of the frequency spectrum, it looks like a pyramid. At the base of that pyramid(also the largest part), is the low frequency part(no pun intended). It's the part that supports everything else. When that is lacking, everything else sounds thin.
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

It depends what kind of live event you attend. You get chest-thumping bass at a lot of rock concerts because the bass has been boosted. You get the low notes without a thump with classical and acoustic jazz. You hear the low notes, but no thump. Some headphones get that right and some add to the bass. I disagree that all of the neutral headphones attenuate bass - some years ago, someone demonstrated that the K-501 reproduces all the way down.

Sonic Atrocity, the best way to understand the Loudness War is to Google that term. I don't have a URL, but there's a short video that makes the point extremely well. You'll understand it completely in about two minutes. I think it's on YouTube - you should find it without much trouble.

As for dealing with a rolled off bass, you do not want the amp to add to the low end. Some of the cheap tube amps do this because they have poor control over the low end, making things sloppy. Some people like the loose, blooming bass, but it's not accurate. You can boost the low end with equalization, but that opens another can of worms because it'll affect other parts of the sound spectrum. For a high quality, very neutral amp, try the Gilmore Lite/Dynalo. It gives you lots of power and is as clear and crisp as amps come.

 

[stevenswall]

The measurements posted by Etymotic Research ring true to me... Too bad they don't make a full-size headphone. They appear to have a patented system for analyzing the frequency response of the ear, and manufacture their earphones to match this as closely as possible. IMy opinion is that an Etymotic FR is the most 'natural' and uncoloured... Check for clarification, as I am not an expert, etymotic.com, If anyone else knows more, I'm open to correction!

 

[moodyrn]

Quote:

It depends what kind of live event you attend. You get chest-thumping bass at a lot of rock concerts because the bass has been boosted. You get the low notes without a thump with classical and acoustic jazz. You hear the low notes, but no thump. Some headphones get that right and some add to the bass. I disagree that all of the neutral headphones attenuate bass - some years ago, someone demonstrated that the K-501 reproduces all the way down.

 

I never said all neutral headphones attenuate bass. I never even said some of them does it. I said lot people "consider" bass light headphones to be neutral. So please don't put words in my mouth. My point was that a lot of people have misconceptions of what neutrality is. And I also said neither bass light headphones nor bass heavy headphones are neutral cans. And I don't care what type of concert or live recording you go to, the bass is always full and well extended. Even when you attend a session that features a jazz trio. The upright bass is balanced with the other two instruments. There's plenty of everything and nothing is lacking. Also extension is one thing, but impact is another. Some cans may extend deep, but if the impact is lacking they are not neutral. Extension is only one part of it.Just like some cans may have good impact but the extension isn't there.