[whoelse]

Get the exact opposite, Grados

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

here is a screen shot of windows settings.
 
http://postimage.org/image/r2zdoh3k5/full/
 
that setting remove the "muddiness" of the sound, however harsh sounds become even harsher.
 
what is a EQ program you recommend?

 
If you're just running through Windows sound, I don't really know of any EQs that you can use. The only ones I have experience with are VST plugins for music players like winamp or Jriver. This is the one I use on occasion: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-equalizer/
I've also tried this one: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ezq/
this one is fairly popular, though I don't have much experience with it: http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/
 
 
 
 
 
Quote:

This is a certainly interesting topic, and I have put some times to study. One theory is that because the output power is not of constant at different volume, which the cans cannot perform as well. Even with amp this can happen, due to component used, etc. Gonna run ttyl.

 
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here... power naturally fluctuates with the amplitude and wave shape. General power figures are for assumed sinusoidal waves, which would make for very boring music. An amp really makes no difference to whether or not power is delivered. Where it makes a difference is when your existing amp can't provide the necessary voltage or current swing (or both). 

 

[razor1911]

here is how the equalizer looks like at "powerfull"
 
http://postimage.org/image/z1tv4s8h3/
 
I am trying to understand how frequency response graphs for headphones is interpreted, by the way I am an software engineer, so I understand how DSP work, but not for audio:
 
 
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=853&graphID[]=383&graphID[]=2881
 
I think this explains a lot for me:
 
1-  I think what people mean when they say grado is warm, is that the treble is on the high side.
 
2- Denon is bass heavy as demonstrated
 
3- HD650 treble is low, what people in here call "darkness"
 
so now for my questions now is:
 
A- if my conclusion above is correct, then I can decide of what headphones I will like based on the frequency response?
 
B- shouldnt an ideal headphones have complete flat line, ie all frequency have the amplitude, where the user customize how it "feels"
 
C- wouldnt an equalizer change the "color" \ "signature" of headphones without the need for changing headphones \ amps etc.

 

[Armaegis]

Dark/warm generally refers to a heavier bass presence (or lack of treble). Bright/cool is the opposite. "Detail" is generally considered the higher frequencies, but think of detail actually as the harmonics of the 
 
An "ideal" response should be relatively flat, but headphone acoustics are different from speakers. In a speaker, a flat response will generally "sound" flat. In a headphone, you have resonances due to the nearby coupling of the speaker to the ear, which result in very wobbly treble response. Furthermore, your ear canal has its own resonance peaks (which likely will not line up with the headphone resonance peaks), and bass will feel somewhat anemic because you no longer feel the body vibrations from the low frequencies.
 
Thus, an "ideal" headphone response usually has a slightly boosted bass across entire region, and a downturned treble in select spots to minimize the ear canal resonances. After all that, then you can tweak EQ based on personal preferences and physiology (age and health both have strong effects on your hearing, especially in the treble). 
 
Beyond frequency response, there is also decay times to consider. You can read up on these as CSD (cumulative spectral decay) plots, or waterfall plots/graphs. 
 
I've never heard of Grados being described as warm. Usually quite the opposite. The Denons have excellent bass extension, meaning they reach very low without suffering from frequency rolloff, and they are fairly linear in bass as well (many headphones have a midbass hump). The HD650 treble would actually be considered quite ideal by most. If you're finding them a little dark. maybe consider the Beyerdynamic DT880/990.
 
A - Yes and no. The FR graphs is a good starting point, as is a CSD plot. However, keep in mind that headphone measurements also go through and HRTF filter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function.
While the most common HRTF functions are pretty good, they are not perfect and everyone's ears and head are different. In a perfect world you would have your own specific HRTF on file and all the headphone manufacturers would provide raw data for you to calculate with your own HRTF... but since that's never going to happen, we make do with the existing charts and use our ears when we have a chance (such as attending a local meet)
 
B - answered above
 
C - Yes, up to a point. You can change frequency response of the driver, which partially affects spectral decay, but not all of it. 

 

[razor1911]

thanks for your time and advice Armaegis.
 
one final question, I found people paying more money for cables than headphones.
 
in certian cases, really expsneive power cables like kimber kable power.
 
that does not make much sense. at the end of the day cable might affect how the headphones sounds, but that does not mean better quality.
 
as for the power cable \ power supply, I dont bielive that it will improve the audio in any way.

 

[Armaegis]

The cable thing is a hotbed of debate. I personally feel that there is a lot of bs and snake oil regarding cables, but there is some merit to a good cable as well. The gist of it is that you want something well made, flexibility (when needed), durability (most of the time), some decent connectors, and shielding depending on the application. You have to keep in mind that diminishing returns and changes in sound exceeds the limits of human hearing in cables arguably faster than any other component. 
 
The pricing of a lot of cables is also ridiculous. Now, I'm willing to pay extra for aesthetics, durability, and even some placebo, but I've got my limits. As a guy who makes his own cables sometimes, I can understand how much time/labour goes into making them. Hell, I've spent more time making cables than I have putting an amp together. If I'm commissioned to make something, I expect to be compensated for my time as such. All things considered, I make barely minimum wage on my cables. 
 
On the matter of power supplies, well a good power supply is not to be underestimated. Noise can creep into a system from many places, and the power supply is one of them. Voltage rails are not perfectly consistent, and any noise in them will amplify into an audio stream. Even a ground may not be consistent, and when that starts to wobble so does everything else in the entire system. Current limits are also something to consider, as some inadequate power supplies may strain to provide the necessary current under peak loads. That all said, much like with amplifiers once you hit a threshold where the basic and extreme power needs of the system are met and there are some decent noise filters in place, the diminishing returns start to hit pretty fast. 
 
I have personally heard a difference going from a wallwart or battery to a dedicated linear regulated supply. It's not a huge difference, but it's there. Whether it's worth the cost, that's up to your wallet. 

 

[razor1911]

that is some excellent thinking armaegis,
 
I was starting to lose hope of someone being sensible about the price vs return.
 
 
I can see how power can add to noise if its not filtered or EMI is excessive.
 
I might be wrong in this one, but I am going to take this a bit further:
 
please forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but

I believe that top tier headphones are not necessary "better" than each others, its all subjective, or call it flavors of sound.
 
so an expensive headphones might not sound better than cheaper one, if that make sense.
 
best thing is to go to an actual retail and listen to them in person. only problem is how do I evaluate them in such short time, I need to figure this one out.

 

[Armaegis]

By a strictly technical interpretation, a "better" headphone should have a more linear frequency response (after accounting for the HRTF) with as fast a decay as possible, in order to present the sound as accurately as possible. That said, accurate and pleasing are not necessarily the same thing. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a technically flat response will feel a little light in the bass and a bit weak in the treble/detail due to lack of room acoustics and bass pressures. Boosting these responses slightly in a headphone will restore that sense, at least artificially. You can also compensate for the acoustics via programs like Isone Pro, or Focusrite VRM. Some amps do offer crossfade, but this is a poor man's version of proper HRTF. 
 
I've owned a myriad of headphones from the budget range, to the $100-200 range, and currently have an HE-6. There was a palpable jump from cheapies to some decent budget headphones, another smaller jump into the mid-fi range, and it took a big jump into the $1k range for me to get a definite "yes, these are better" feeling. Worth the price jump? At my current income level, no. I will be selling the HE-6 soon and am considering trying the HE-500 or just sticking with what I have. If I had more disposable income though... very tempting. Heck, it's very tempting to keep it even now, but gotta pay the bills y'know.
 
I've also done the climb with amps and dacs, having built my own cmoys and various other things, and owning dacs/amps from the $20 FiiO e5 to the $1.1k Nuforce DAC-100. Again, a noticeable difference, but serious diminishing returns, even faster than the headphones. Discernable jump going from a laptop headphone output to the iBasso D10. Moving up to the Nuforce, I have to really put my ears to the test to hear the difference unless I'm using difficult to drive cans, though in that case it's a matter of needing an amp that simple has better gain structure than the D10.
 
People tend to say source first in audiophile circles, but honestly the source feels the effects of diminishing returns fastest. I'm going to try and stick to a 1:2:3 rule for myself, which should be the relative value of the dac/amp/headphone (maybe more like a 1:1:2:3:5 rule, for cablesower:dac:amp:headphone).
 
As for how to evaluate, just load up some of your favourite and most familiar songs on an mp3 player or bring a cd with you. Any dedicated shop should have a quiet listening room. Here are some things I listen for:
- cymbals - how they shine when struck, and not overbearing or shrieking
- drums - driving rhythm with a thump that doesn't overwhelm
- a solo voice in a room with good acoustics - listen for breath (literally)
- a group of voices - how well can you distinguish voices from each other
- acoustic and vocal - how well the voice is distinguished from the instrument
- piano - this is extremely difficult to reproduce clearly across the spectrum
- electronica with a treble line over a heavy bass line - just for simple separation

 

[Currawong]

For the HD650s, I reckon a number of things are going on -- all of a combination of the headphones' frequency response, lack of a suitable amp and lack of a source. I'm something of a detail junkie and, in the end, caved and went for the top Stax gear. Unfortunately it is the finest details, such as being able to hear how far from the centre or edge a cymbal has been hit, that costs the big dollars. 
 
Specifically for the HD6X0 series, the effect of a better amp will be that it as if the studio a recording was made in is larger, with each instrument more defined.  Then, the better amp will reveal the shortcomings of whatever source you are using and so the circle of upgrade-itis starts to set in.
 
EQ'ing will just add more distortion, as you've already discovered. That is why the sound became fatiguing. While I'm big on finding the right FR balance for the music one likes, you can't EQ in detail.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

EQ'ing will just add more distortion, as you've already discovered. That is why the sound became fatiguing. While I'm big on finding the right FR balance for the music one likes, you can't EQ in detail.

 
Well... adding in a touch of treble is a bit like fake detail. The trick is adding just enough and in the right places to emphasize the desired harmonics or a particular song/voice/genre/etc without totally skewing the rest of the waveforms.