[beeman458]

I'm trying to say that it doesn't matter if I hear it or not, because my hearing it does not mean it's real. So experience alone is not proof of anything.
 
Wow!  Those anti-cable guys seem to have colored your thinking.
 
Just because someone can hear something in the fog of noise only thirty percent, or even ten percent of the time, doesn't mean they're guessing or that what they're hearing doesn't exist.  But that's what the anti-cable guys want you to believe.  All of our senses become fuzzy at some time and point as our senses have an analogue feel, not an on/off digital feel like being stabbed with a knife.  The anti-cable guys have turned an analogue debate into a digital debate of 1's and 0's, on or off, with nothing in the middle.  Talk about whiffing one.
 
Example: You're in a thick fog, and you're not sure if you're seeing something or not and it's a dynamic situation, is it rational, since you're not right seventy percent of the time, to say what you're seeing doesn't exist?  How about those with partial color blindness or nerve damage?  Or is it more accurate to say that what you're seeing is being obscured by the fog or you're reaching the ends of your limitations?  How's your targeting skills at a hundred yards?  How's your targeting skills at four hundred yards.  Need a scope?  Of course it's not rational debate and neither are the parameters set about by the anti-cable guys.
 
At a certain point one has to call BS on BS.  That's why debates of this kind are pointless.  The anti-cable guys are convinced and it don't matter what one can or can't hear as it's all about them and only them and you can buy only what they approve of.
 
"We are the Borg and you will be assimilated."
 

 
FWIW, I listen at very low levels.  Levels so low (5 out of a possible 100 and sometimes lower) that there's not enough power to open the headphones up.  So I'm dialing my system in to accommodate these low listening levels.  My hearing sensitivity is pretty much normal in that I'm able to hear down to 1db dependably and my hearing gets sketchy at about a 1/2db.  According to the pundits, I'm guessing at a 1/2db when clearly it's not guessing.  What it is, is that I'm at the end of my analogue abilities to differentiate; sensitivity.  There's no guessing going on as I'm now reaching into my noise floor and the sound is being obscured by the analogue noise in my hearing floor.  What a concept.  Example: you're listening to a radio transmission at the extreme range of the analogue transmitter and you're only picking up every forth or fifth word.  According to the anti-cable pundits, you're now guessing.  Why?  Because you can reliably only hear twenty or twenty-five percent of the transmission.  So, according to the pundits, you're really not hearing any of the transmission and you're only guessing. 
 
This is how they define the debate so as to suit their personal bias'.  When one tries to take an analogue world and sum it up in digital terms, what's really going on is the anti-cable guys are pushing their digital bias on others; it's their way or the highway.  Well good for them.  The point, sometimes you just have to turn their noise off, ignore them and stop caring what the anti-cable group has to say for themselves.  Just enjoy what currently is being presented to your ears cause you're hearing what you're hearing, with or without their blessings.
 
Custom headphone cables are on order and I should have them in hand for evaluation in a couple of weeks.  Today, the computer power supply was replaced and yes, doing so opened up both the sound stage and individual stringed notes of the jazz cello and grand piano piece.  Previously compacted or harsh stringed high notes were smoothed out by the opening up of these notes. 
 
Today, UPS delivered a new, ten foot Audioquest NGR-3 power cord.  The addition of this power cord seemed to have flattened out (loss of clarity and dynamics) the sonic character of the music and I went back to the cord that was supplied with the original power supply.  My opinion, my ears, the $2.95, three foot power cord, attached to the power strip, next to wall warts, sonically sounds better than the $200.00 ten foot custom cord, attached to it's own wall plug.  Oh well, seems that I'm either out two hundred bucks or I just bought me a very expensive ten foot extension cord to use under the Christmas tree.  And what's so cool about all of the above?  All these mods, equipment changes and opinions are being made/formed and posted online, without the anti-cable guys seal of approval.  I do it for my ears, not theirs.
 

 

[eucariote]

^ you seem to be missing the point of the post you're quoting.  Perception is not a direct report from the sense organs (cochlea, eyes).  It's a process of inductive inference that by its nature integrates sensory information with history, expectations and information from other senses.  This has been demonstrated by anatomy and neuroscience.  This is not a flaw, it does not mean that people are 'deaf', etc.   It is optimally adaptive and allows people and animals to predict events in the environment far beyond immediate sense information.
 
Note I am not saying that any particular cable works or doesn't (I own HD600, stock and upgrade cables and hear lots of things 

).  Just that sighted experience is affected by these processes and they make nonbiased evaluation impossible.  I do scientific tests for a living, no peer-reviewed journals publish data collected by sighted methods.

 

[beeman458]

I do scientific tests for a living, no peer-reviewed journals publish data collected by sighted methods.
 
I hope that wasn't intended to try and impress me and by stating such, is expected for me to change my point of view that there's no point in debating the issue.
 

 
My opinion, some issues are best left un-debated because the argument ends up boiling down to a childish argument of the anti-cable side trying to control the pro-cable side as opposed to adults learning to get along with each other.  One may do scientific tests for a living, but I don't buy into the rules of the game regarding what percentages constitutes a valid or invalid hearing test or the premise that at fifty percent, the test results are no more than a coin toss.  I'm not going try to change the rules or try and change anybody's mind on the matter.  Why?  There's no point.  Where I tell the person in front of me to talk to the hand, is when they tell me that they know their tests, know better than what I'm hearing.
 
To me, it's about the music and how the sonic characteristics impacts one's emotions.  You know, that shady untestable area of human hearing, emotional impact.  And at this level, my opinion, that's all anybody should care about.  Today, I swapped out the power supply, it made a "huge" difference to the good in my emotional response to the music.  Today, I swapped out the power cable and it "ruined" the sonic characteristics of the music and now I have a two hundred dollar extension cord.  None of what I did today was about sight as what I did today was singularly about sound and it's impact on my emotions and today, the sighted two hundred dollar, audiophile grade power cord, lost out to a three dollar computer power supply cord because the two hundred dollar power cord killed the emotional impact of the music.  The point, what was done today wasn't about ego, sight or money as what was done today was about what it was about, the sound quality of the music coming out of the computer being ported over to the headphones and it's emotional impact on my being.
 

 

[xnor]

Quote:

My opinion, [...]

 
Who cares?
 
(childish, yes, but funny)
 
 
 
Quote:

One may do scientific tests for a living, but I don't buy into the rules of the game regarding what percentages constitutes a valid or invalid hearing test or the premise that at fifty percent, the test results are no more than a coin toss.

 
Back to school then!
 
 
 
Quote:

The point, what was done today wasn't about ego, sight or money as what was done today was about what it was about, the sound quality of the music coming out of the computer being ported over to the headphones and it's emotional impact on my being.

 
Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.

 

[JaZZ]

 

 
Just thinking that the sound quality improved (...) doesn't actually improve it.

Yes, it does! Sound quality is a purely subjective thing – a matter of individual perception. (Whereas signal accuracy would be a quantifiable/measurable issue.)
 
That said, to my ears and in my experience cables, particularly headphone cables, alter the sound in a reliable manner, that's why I consider the differences real, not imagined.
 
Please let's not dicuss testing methods here (see forum rules!); this sub-forum serves for exchanging experiences. For the former there's a special sub-forum.
 
I'm aware of the problem that under this premise an adequate response from an objectivist perspective to posts like the above is impossible, but there's no ideal solution in an imperfect world.
.

 

[Azathoth]

FWIW, I have heard the HD600 on stock cables and on the APS v3 cable. The APS cable does improve the overall SQ noticeably to my ears - crisper and added clarity.

 

[beeman458]

Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.
 
Wishing you well with your personal frustrations and  need to control others.
 
(I posted the "beating a dead horse" icon but found it's motion distracting and removed it.)

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Just thinking that the sound quality improved (fooling yourself) doesn't actually improve it.
 
Wishing you well with your personal frustrations and  need to control others.
 
(I posted the "beating a dead horse" icon but found it's motion distracting and removed it.)

That's exactly the sort of reply I was expecting.


Quote:

I'm aware of the problem that under this premise an adequate response from an objectivist perspective to posts like the above is impossible, but there's no ideal solution in an imperfect world..

 
It's a terrible pity.
 

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It's a terrible pity.
 

The pity is you not being able to hear something so many others reliably can friend (especially over the long-run as they become more versed with the changes and realize what to look for).
 
To the OP: Just try a cable. Buy one for cheap off the FS section so you can sell it for minimal or no loss if you feel it's not worth it. Give it some time also. Audio subtleties won't jump out at you immediately. IME 1) the better the supporting gear, the more prominent the cable-induced changes are 2) switching to a different wire material will produce larger changes than using a better quality version of the same material. 3) Sometimes, the cable makes a change but it's actually for the worse subjectively.

 

[beeman458]

Shahrose, a question, for a question.  Have you tried a HD-650 and if so, noting your gear list, how much better is the HD-800 when compared to a HD-650?
 
???

 

[BIG POPPA]

I can honestly say The HD 800's are a whole different animal. The 650's are more forgiving than the 800's. The sound takes a little to get used to with the 800's.

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

I can honestly say The HD 800's are a whole different animal. The 650's are more forgiving than the 800's. The sound takes a little to get used to with the 800's.

That's pretty much it. I didn't sell the 650s even after I got the 800s because they're so different. I still like both, despite the obvious increase in resolution, soundstage, speed and realism you get with the 800s. The 650s are very forgiving and involving even with bad recordings.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

That's pretty much it. I didn't sell the 650s even after I got the 800s because they're so different. I still like both, despite the obvious increase in resolution, soundstage, speed and realism you get with the 800s. The 650s are very forgiving and involving even with bad recordings.

 
x2
 

 

[dlnwntchld]

So far i don't think HD600 benefits from a cable change really; i tried swapping the Plussound Apollonian i use on my Senn Amperior instead of the stock Senn HD600 cable and i though the music lacked impact. This was as close an A/B you could get. i did them back to back and gave a few seconds in between to let my aural palette rest a bit. 
 
On the Amperior, the stock cable was really awfully thin; like something you would see on a cheap IEM. The PS Apollonian cable made a big difference in the spaciousness, impact and depth of the sound. Overall it thickened up the sound a bit which when paired with my ibasso dx50, i think sounds really rich and immersive.
 
I really do think the stock cable is really adequate from the jump, so IMO theres no real reason to upgrade. Buying a good solid-state amp will make more of difference.

 

[Steve58]

  Anyone? I'd love some speculation.

Dont you think the specialist engineers know how to specify an appropriate cable off the shelf? I am wondering why these deluded neurotic cable guys dont start playing around with the diaphram and ports they are so knowledgable. Its all BS smoke and mirrors stuff for idiots. I have got some special Audiophile solder for sale so you can desolder the PCB's in your DAC or amp and resolder it with this special Audio solder.....unprecedented detail and all round improvement in sound, crazy kick butt bass.