[vedye]

To my ears the sound changes noticeably.

Out of box it's dark & muddy, i was disappointed, and I remembered the A-B test I did with UE SF5pro right then, it's just muddy, not clear.

And I noticed the quite obvious change after about a week (can't remember exactly when, since i wasn't expecting it..). One day I suddenly have an opened up feeling when the music starts, and there it goes. Curiosity made me did another A-B test with my other phones including sony ex90. This time it's definitely not muddy, separation is much more clearer. Now it feels smooth instead of muddy.

And the big soundstage and details seems always been there, can't remember exactly.

 

[Arjisme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vedye /img/forum/go_quote.gif [...]and I remembered the A-B test I did with UE SF5pro right then [...]

A pedantic point: "A-B test" is not a synonym for "comparison." I've seen it used that way a couple of times in this thread. It is extremely unlikely you could successfully A-B test two IEMs that are different brands. To do an A-B test, you should not know which IEM is which when you are listening to them. [/nit-picking mode]

Regarding the OT of the thread, when I see discussions about burn-in that are not in Sound Science, I have decided not to sweat the details over whether the actual phones are changing vs. your own mind is adjusting vs. a combination of the two. I just read these discussions as something like "how long did it take before you really started to like [X] IEMs?" In this thread, several people have reported they didn't like the IE8s much at first, but grew to like them over time. Possibly this is due to them being used over time (aka physical burn-in), causing a change in the IEMs. But who knows? We aren't aiming for science here, as PhilS points out.

 

[gov]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So do you feel the PFEs are a worthy phone, at least in the ballpark of a top tier IEM? Just curious. I guess the soundstage deal is the major difference.

i'll preface what i'm about to say with this grain of salt: this is my first foray into IEM's but i am quite comfortable in my "opinions" on audio in general. i have always spent more time listening and enjoying than i have trying to compare, analyze, verbalize or comprehend what i am hearing and therefore it is often difficult to put my words into your understanding.

that said, my experience with iems and top tiers etc is limited to the PFE's, ie8's and sa6's. the pfe's are in the class of the others no doubt.

i guess you are calling soundstage what i referred to as dynamics. when i think soundstage, i (perhaps incorrectly) relate that to the "placement" of instruments and voices through the phones/speakers. what i mean by dynamics is that i feel like i am listening to speakers. the sound is full and doesn't lack anything--be it bass, mids or high end. in this regard, the ie8's are vastly superior to the pfe's. i actually get a perfect easy seal on the pfe's and less of one on the ie8's. i do find slightly more sibilance on the ie's but i think this may be a combination of source and fit as it's there to a lesser degree at times on the pfe's (i use black filters--when i use gray i notice it even more).

i paid $300 for my ie's and $130 for my pfe's. my dilemma is whether that "dynamics" is worth 2.5 times the price. i don't necessarily feel like i am lacking anything when i use the pfe's, but when i put in the ie's i find myself smiling more and moving around a bit more

i'm going to wait until i receive the comply tips and make my final call from there.

 

[hockeyb213]

yes burn in has changed my ie8's over the course of 150 hours I find that the burn in turned a good iem out of the box into the best I ever heard by the end but the changes are not HUGE but they are most definitely noticeable

 

[vedye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjisme /img/forum/go_quote.gif A pedantic point: "A-B test" is not a synonym for "comparison." I've seen it used that way a couple of times in this thread. It is extremely unlikely you could successfully A-B test two IEMs that are different brands. To do an A-B test, you should not know which IEM is which when you are listening to them. [/nit-picking mode]

English is not my first language so i'll remember what A-B test means next time.

 

[pdupiano]

The forum has certainly been busy since i left for class but first off Phils your wrong. Prior to your post, Average_Joe and I were not discussing if burn in occurs or does not occur, our back and fourth was on what are the actual changes take place when you burn in a headphone. I never stated that I didn't believe in burn in, just that Burn in is not an effect that can make a set of headphones sound completely different. I stated that out of the box headphones should be around 90% of their performance, and burn in will take it the rest of the way, not go from horrible to amazing.

Average_Joe, I reread your comments and they are about burn in, but my question is still, if you end your statements with YMMV, but still talk about your burn in, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? I realize that I'm asking for you to take an absolutist stand, but its almost like your throwing a 1-2 combination at me (the ie8's really perk up after 200hrs) and then you hide behind the ref with (YMMV). But yes perhaps I am cornering you to make absolutist statements about a subjective topic (but notice if we are in fact discussing burn in, it is an effect/phenomena that is objective -since we can't really tell our IE8's diaphragms to behave how we like it). But otherwise still good points I guess I may just be taking out my ymmv rage out on you sorry bout that.

FlyPenFly, you stated:
"Actually science is the end all in human objectivity. Headroom's test are not very scientific at all if they're using differing factors for the same benchmark."

-Thanks for agreeing, but notice I never said science is objective, I just pointed out that its more objective than human measurement. And my example about headroom isn't that theyre using different factors/variables. They use the same fake head/ears to try and determine frequency response. The problem is, what if the material they use absorb certain frequencies/resonate others. In other words, while it may be a test that is more objective than a human being, its
1)utterly pointless if humans experience something else
2)utterly dependent on their test equipment (meaning its test equipment-subjective).

Now that they're redoing their tests on a new set up, does that mean that the shures or ety data they collected are now useless? Does that mean the performance of these headphones have changed? .... Objective... I don't think so.

and as for returning to the original post, I've been listening to these now for the second day and I have yet to notice any difference. Then again I havent changed headphones in the past few days so I may just be adjusting to the headphones. From most of the comments here, people tried the headphones out, burned them in and listened later with prolonged periods in between. I'll give it a try but without something to compare it to, I really dont think any statement I make would be of any value.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif Average_Joe, I reread your comments and they are about burn in, but my question is still, if you end your statements with YMMV, but still talk about your burn in, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? I realize that I'm asking for you to take an absolutist stand, but its almost like your throwing a 1-2 combination at me (the ie8's really perk up after 200hrs) and then you hide behind the ref with (YMMV). But yes perhaps I am cornering you to make absolutist statements about a subjective topic (but notice if we are in fact discussing burn in, it is an effect/phenomena that is objective -since we can't really tell our IE8's diaphragms to behave how we like it). But otherwise still good points I guess I may just be taking out my ymmv rage out on you sorry bout that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif and as for returning to the original post, I've been listening to these now for the second day and I have yet to notice any difference. Then again I havent changed headphones in the past few days so I may just be adjusting to the headphones. From most of the comments here, people tried the headphones out, burned them in and listened later with prolonged periods in between. I'll give it a try but without something to compare it to, I really dont think any statement I make would be of any value.

Four letters that set you off, YMMV. First, I do appreciate the debate/difference in opinion. I did already explain that YMMV was in reference to burn in for various reasons already stated. Take you for example, what I am getting from what you wrote is you are listening for burn in. And the biggest point for this debate is you don't have anything to compare it to.

It is hard to tell differences if you burn in while listening.

Example: Tony and Jenny are boyfriend/girlfriend at school. Tony is an albino and Jenny is Latin. During Christmas break they go their separate ways, and Jenny goes to a tanning salon every other day for the break, tanning naked (no baseline/comparison). She thinks she is tanner, but not all that tan. When they reunite, Tony is amazed at how tan she has become, Jenny doesn't think she is very dark, as she has seen a gradual change every time she has looked in the mirror. Her family didn't really comment either because they saw Jenny every day.

Now if Jenny tanned with a bikini on (reference point), she would have seen the big difference that Tony saw because she had a baseline, her bikini areas.

Tony could never get as dark as Jenny due to genetics, so even if Jenny had a reference, she would not think she is as tan as Tony thinks she it.

Hope my point came across with that example, YMMV

I had a very good fast IEM as a reference point, the Phonak Audeo PFE. I did not listen while burning in. I did compare to a stable baseline, a BA IEM.

The first song I played on my un-burned in IE8 was Armin van Buuren - Imagine, which I have heard at least 300 times. Hell, I am listening to it right now. There are fast parts of that song, deep bass, details, piano, an electronic part that really accentuates the IE8s initial mid-bass hump, and treble. It was the slowest thing I have heard, it sounded weird. I listened to one more song with the same conclusion and burned in for 8 hours, much better results.

*****

On a different note, what do resellers do with returned merchandise (not because of defects)? Do they only sell them as used? Do they ship back to the manufacturer?

If they ship them back to the manufacturer, what does the manufacturer do? Do they clean, replace accessories and repackage them? Do they give/sell them to their employees? Sell them as used/re certified? Destroy them?

I am just curious, as I have read many people that have listened to IEMs and returned them. So if someone else gets a used IEM, there is a chance it has some burn in! Just a thought to possibly throw a twist in the debate

 

[walkingman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif On a different note, what do resellers do with returned merchandise (not because of defects)? Do they only sell them as used? Do they ship back to the manufacturer? If they ship them back to the manufacturer, what does the manufacturer do? Do they clean, replace accessories and repackage them? Do they give/sell them to their employees? Sell them as used/re certified? Destroy them?

Once I got a used headphone even though I paid for new. They didn't even bother to hide the fact that it was heavily used. The packaging was torn and the headphones wasn't placed properly in the display tray. I found it all wrapped up inside the bundled case.

Obviously I returned it and demanded for a replacement.

 

[LaaG]

If burn in made such dramatic differences to the sound ie. some posts here say how the IE8s were muddy and harsh brand new, but after burn in they were better then the W3s... and how some people could tell the difference between a new set and a burned in set...
Would the manufacturer not put some sort of note on the packageing like: "Sound quality will improve with prolonged use..."

Obviously the manufacturers dont think it exists and what you get out of the box is what will always be there.

Mental burn in... now thats real. Going from dynamics to BAs then back to dynamics.... took quite a few days for me...

 

[MythNoob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaaG /img/forum/go_quote.gif Obviously the manufacturers dont think it exists and what you get out of the box is what will always be there....

the manufacturers know that most people who spend this kind of money for earphones would allready have done their research and know about burn in

 

[walkingman]

When I first got the IE 8, I choose a song I really love and listened to it once. The bass was so muddy and the female vocals so harsh it gave me a mild headache. The soundstage was none-existent. It sounds more like what to expect from a BA IEM.

I removed the IE 8 from my ears and left it to 'burn in' for an hour. When I returned, I noticed that the clarity has improved dramatically.

To be honest I never really believe in the need to burn-in speakers, but in this case the difference was like day and night despite just two listens within a space of any hour.

 

[soozieq]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkingman /img/forum/go_quote.gif The bass was so muddy and the female vocals so harsh it gave me a mild headache. The soundstage was none-existent. It sounds more like what to expect from a BA IEM. I removed the IE 8 from my ears and left it to 'burn in' for an hour. but in this case the difference was like day and night despite just two listens within a space of any hour.

Is it at all possible you got a better seal the second time round? Just asking, because I don't think I've read of anyone who thought the soundstage was 'non-existent' on the first listen. Your description of harsh vocals and no soundstage sounds like a poor seal.

 

[walkingman]

The seals are perfect actually for my short ear canals. Believe me I tried all sorts of stuff to dislodge it like yawning and talking (to myself)

.

I am using the same tips as I had when I first got it and the soundstage has definitely opened up now. And when I meant none-existent initially, I meant it was more like the same headstage sound I am accustomed with my Klipsch Custom 3, rather than say the CX 95.

I am going to explore the other tips later.

 

[Nocturnal310]

I heard 2 IE8's...one was a fresh out of box.

and the other was burned in audition model.

in both..the soundstage was huge from the moment i put them on....but the bass on fresh model was overpowering and weakening the vocals.


the forte of IE8 is definitely the Soundstage which made me reconsider IEM's in the first place. (if u read my older posts..i was very skeptical about IEM's replacing my supra aurals)

 

[walkingman]

Not sure why my IE 8 out of box's soundstage was poor. Different tips from others I guess, even despite me being satisfied with the current tips. Or perhaps reading the various positive impressions on its soundstage made me get ahead of myself and expecting HD650 like soundstage from the beginning (which in hindsight was ridiculous as that was never going to happen).

Oh well. I am satisfied with the sound now and that is what matters. I've already stopped burning them in (no way was I going to leave it plugged into a radio unused and unloved) and enjoying them as it is.