[FlyPenFly]

A scientific study would not be an A/B test but some sort of high sensitivity equipment that can measure frequency out of an IEM then compare 250 hours vs new.

Otherwise, we're just talking in circles of he said he also said.

 

[pdupiano]

Actually it can't. Science isn't a be all end all in objectivity. You do realize that all science is just depended on "non-human" forms of measurement. For example Headroom's headphone tests were a great tool, and technically very scientific. BUT it depended on the placement/location/material used etc... While certainly "more objective" than human measurements, they weren't clear cut and truly objective -they depended on other variables, so IF they screwed up with what materials they used, the frequency response they obtained would be different from a human being. I think theyre retesting all the headphones as we debate/clusterf*** over the topic shows you that science isn't exactly as we all wish it was.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott549 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem I have is that NO ONE has scientifically proven it in a lab; that's why I think it's the brain that is getting burned in. I think people should recognize it for what it is, and I don't understand the need for people to think the speakers, as opposed to their brain, are changing.

Well, no one that we know of

I do think there is mental burn in, but to me that does not describe the changes that occurred. I know I get used to a sound sig, but whenever I switch, I can tell the differences, weather it is my NE-7, the PFE, the IE8, KSC75s, RS-130s, whatever, I notice differences when I switch between them. Now, after listening for some time, my comfort level and enjoyment of the sound sig changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry average_joe but I think by in large its pretty pointless to make claims, write reviews, and then end it with a YMMV post. Considering that your words/reviews have a great impact on other people's decisions. You've heavily defended the IE8's and have had a lot of great comments about them, but then when someone questions your comments you quickly hide behind a YMMV-Shield. I think just take the comments and counter them.

YMMV is in reference to burn in - read the posts, people claim different things. Why, as I have explained before, different variables, with a big one being frame of reference. When bystanders are interviewed after a traffic accident, they give different interpretations of what happened. The same thing is true with any percieved event, such as listening to headphones. This is not 1 + 1 = 2, this is subjective base on an a unique environment with a unique individual.

And I am not going to be a zealot that says "they sound horrible at first, if you think differently you are just plain wrong." I am reporting what I have heard, and if you notice, there are many IE8 owners that back me up, but not all. I can accept that. I don't know why there has to be an absolute when sound is subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW A/B different headphones comparing pre and post burn in of one of them is a little dubious (what if the phonaks changed their sound sig as well -probably not, but just maybe). Further more if I remember correctly, you review had a big change after you changed the filter on the phonaks (so could you have been A/B pre burn in + bad filter versus post burn in + good filter)? In which case your assessments were coloured. Furthermore, there is "mental burn-in" as many of us have pointed out and from what I can tell A/B anything other than the same set of headphones as Zardos did is pointless its not really A/B (because you've added additional variables to what you're comparing -your no longer comparing the ie8s).

Popular consensus is that BAs don't burn in, again have not seen any lab tests, but my ears tell me it is so. And as far as changing the filters, I was happy with the black filters on the PFEs until about the 170 or so hour mark on the IE8s. I am just reporting what I heard. My initial baseline for all my testing was the black filters, and I made an initial assessment based on that. I did not make comparisons with different levels of the bass knob, I just don't have the time or desire.

Another head-fier suggested I try the grey filters, so I did, and that did change the sound of the PFEs. I did switch back and forth between the filters and could repeat what I heard. Really, what is important to me is repeatability, which I experienced.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif At this point I would trust Zardos' comments beyond most considering he's the only one I know of who's tried a full burn in version and a pre burn in version. (although it sucks why he had the opportunity to do so -sorry mate). On a side note, I Think that long term difference, may just be your ears adjusting to the sound sig. I have yet to try any other iems besides the senns and the monsters but I hope to try out the se530's this weekend to see what happens. I'm expecting to frown as soon as I put the se530's on my ears.... its just when you hear "full sized" iems its hard to go back to regular ones. I have the senns on right now and I'm listening to Coldplay's Parachutte's album and it feels like I'm in a small concert (about 30 people) and the music sounds amazing, I've never heard anythign like it even with the W3 and especially never with my etys or se530. and I'm not going to put a YMMV sign post, I'm going to say that if you try these out, the sheer amount of headstage will blow you away.

My interpretation of Zardos' comments back up what I experienced. I was A/Bing with a very high quality IEM throughout the process. Were there big improvements at the beginning, yes. One of the big differences to me from about 20 hours and 100 or so hours was the mid-bass hump. I have a test track that accentuates that hump, and to me the track was unlistenable until about 100 hours, whereas the PFE, which doesn't have a mid-bass hump at all, sounded very good. And because of that song, I still did notice a hump at 150 hours that has gone down further. How do I know? A/Bing. If I wasn't A/Bing, I would say it could have easily been my ears getting used to the sound.

I would get used to the mid-bass emphasis, but switching back to the PFE, I could hear the difference. And still, some of that, or all of that could be perceived, no one will ever know, although you have made a claim that it is so.

And again, YMMV is for BURN IN time!!! Thanks for your opinions!

 

[FlyPenFly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually it can't. Science isn't a be all end all in objectivity. You do realize that all science is just depended on "non-human" forms of measurement. For example Headroom's headphone tests were a great tool, and technically very scientific. BUT it depended on the placement/location/material used etc... While certainly "more objective" than human measurements, they weren't clear cut and truly objective -they depended on other variables, so IF they screwed up with what materials they used, the frequency response they obtained would be different from a human being. I think theyre retesting all the headphones as we debate/clusterf*** over the topic shows you that science isn't exactly as we all wish it was.

Actually science is the end all in human objectivity. Headroom's test are not very scientific at all if they're using differing factors for the same benchmark.

 

[gadgetman]

@average_joe: if you're talking from physics\scientific perspective, don't you think that our memory is more elastic and the materials inside our ears are more pliable than the materials the IEMs are made of?

 

[zardos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif On a side note, I Think that long term difference, may just be your ears adjusting to the sound sig. I have yet to try any other iems besides the senns and the monsters but I hope to try out the se530's this weekend to see what happens. I'm expecting to frown as soon as I put the se530's on my ears.... its just when you hear "full sized" iems its hard to go back to regular ones. I have the senns on right now and I'm listening to Coldplay's Parachutte's album and it feels like I'm in a small concert (about 30 people) and the music sounds amazing, I've never heard anythign like it even with the W3 and especially never with my etys or se530. and I'm not going to put a YMMV sign post, I'm going to say that if you try these out, the sheer amount of headstage will blow you away.

Today, if I switch back to SE530 I mainly have three impressions:

a) The headstage is not comparable.

b) Sometimes there is a unnatural, "plasticy" taste in the timbre of the SE530. Of course the plastic itself is of high quality and also high priced.

c) The SE530's treble is clearly muffled compared to IE8's.

Impression c is relatively new to me. So it may be the IE8's highs have really opened up due to physical burn-in, though I do not claim being scientific on this. It may still be an acclimation effect. I don't even want to leave out the possiblity that my impressions about the switch from the first pair IE8 to the second pair could be easily explained in psychological terms, because I have read very much about burn-in regarding IE8, so I should have expected and therefor met with those burn-in impressions.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott549 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would LOVE to do an A/B test between a brand new set and the 250 hrs. burned-in set. My prediction -- Average Joe could not tell the difference. I could be wrong, of course.

Doesn't this really divert the point of this thread, and hasn't this issue been discussed ad nauseam on many other threads? There is also a FAQ on burn-in in the full size headphones forum, which I suspect is intended in part to prevent every thread where burn-in is mentioned from turning into an argument about whether it exists, whether it's been proven, etc.

If you don't believe in burn-in, fine; don't do it. But let others who believe in it discuss what amount of time they thought it took for a specific phone without populating these threads with stuff about A/B tests, etc. This is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Let's not kill the joy by dissecting every comment about an improvement in sound or an audible difference in sound by arguing about whether it's been proven in a lab. (At least not here; we have a Sound Science forum for that, right?)

 

[Del Griffith]

Well put phils...

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gadgetman /img/forum/go_quote.gif @average_joe: if you're talking from physics\scientific perspective, don't you think that our memory is more elastic and the materials inside our ears are more pliable than the materials the IEMs are made of?

It is possible, but each person is different. If I drive somewhere once, I usually can visualize how to get back there again, even to the extent of where I parked, what the pavement looked like, and where landmarks along the way are relative to each other. Of course that depends upon how distracted I am, but when I focus, that is how my mind works.

What are the materials used in the IE8 drivers? Does the voice coil change impedance, how are the diaphragm material's cellular structure changing, if any, what about the attach points? How do those changes interact with each other? Does the voice coil heat up and changing material properties? How about the resulting magnetic field?

I am not claiming to know the answers, but have studied materials in depth in the past (if you can't tell

) However I am not sure others commenting on this know the answers either. And I am not trying to draw conclusions other than those based off what I have heard and what I know about physics and materials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't this really divert the point of this thread, and hasn't this issue been discussed ad nauseam on many other threads? There is also a FAQ on burn-in in the full size headphones forum, which I suspect is intended in part to prevent every thread where burn-in is mentioned from turning into an argument about whether it exists, whether it's been proven, etc. If you don't believe in burn-in, fine; don't do it. But let others who believe in it discuss what amount of time they thought it took for a specific phone without populating these threads with stuff about A/B tests, etc. This is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Let's not kill the joy by dissecting every comment about an improvement in sound or an audible difference in sound by arguing about whether it's been proven in a lab.

Having a difference of opinion is one thing and offering other logical options is fine, and I enjoy the debate. PhilS, you make some good points, but also this forum can be used for an enjoyable debate

BTW, do you believe in burn in?

 

[gov]

back to the original question--

i noticed ever so slight improvements on the upper end. i liked them out of the box and like them now.

ironically i am also comparing them to the PFE's as well.

so far i can say they are closer than i would have imagined. the one HUGE advantage in favor of the ie8's is their "dynamics" if you will. i feel more like i am listening to speakers or full sized phones.

the major downside to the ie8's is their pain in the a** placement. i find them harder to get a seal and place in than the other iems i have tried. i ordered the comply tips and will see once they get here.

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't this really divert the point of this thread, and hasn't this issue been discussed ad nauseam on many other threads? There is also a FAQ on burn-in in the full size headphones forum, which I suspect is intended in part to prevent every thread where burn-in is mentioned from turning into an argument about whether it exists, whether it's been proven, etc. If you don't believe in burn-in, fine; don't do it. But let others who believe in it discuss what amount of time they thought it took for a specific phone without populating these threads with stuff about A/B tests, etc. This is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Let's not kill the joy by dissecting every comment about an improvement in sound or an audible difference in sound by arguing about whether it's been proven in a lab. (At least not here; we have a Sound Science forum for that, right?)

Can you explain yourself in a little more detail? Is joke!

 

[tstarn06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gov /img/forum/go_quote.gif back to the original question-- i noticed ever so slight improvements on the upper end. i liked them out of the box and like them now. ironically i am also comparing them to the PFE's as well. so far i can say they are closer than i would have imagined. the one HUGE advantage in favor of the ie8's is their "dynamics" if you will. i feel more like i am listening to speakers or full sized phones. the major downside to the ie8's is their pain in the a** placement. i find them harder to get a seal and place in than the other iems i have tried. i ordered the comply tips and will see once they get here.

So do you feel the PFEs are a worthy phone, at least in the ballpark of a top tier IEM? Just curious. I guess the soundstage deal is the major difference.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Having a difference of opinion is one thing and offering other logical options is fine, and I enjoy the debate. PhilS, you make some good points, but also this forum can be used for an enjoyable debate

Yeah, but you watch. Most of these threads end up with 90% of the thread consisting of debate/argument about the scientific validity of burn-in (and nothing new is ever said), and only about 10% ends up being responsive to the initial post. And, again, we have a Sound Science forum so that folks who want to discuss this stuff can do so without diverting other threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif BTW, do you believe in burn in?

Yes, my experience with full size headphones is that they burn-in, presumably due to the diaphragms loosening up over time. My experience with the IE8's is that the sound changed also, comparing 0-10 hours to 100+ hours. (I didn't listen to them at all between 10 and 100 hours, so I don't think my brain burned-in.) Plus I've listened to a lot of music and lots of combinations of sources, amps, and phones. I know when something sounds different on a musical selection that I am so familiar with that I know the precise sound and placement of every note.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gov /img/forum/go_quote.gif back to the original question-- i noticed ever so slight improvements on the upper end. i liked them out of the box and like them now. ironically i am also comparing them to the PFE's as well. so far i can say they are closer than i would have imagined. the one HUGE advantage in favor of the ie8's is their "dynamics" if you will. i feel more like i am listening to speakers or full sized phones. the major downside to the ie8's is their pain in the a** placement. i find them harder to get a seal and place in than the other iems i have tried. i ordered the comply tips and will see once they get here.

How many hours do you have on the IE8? What filters do you have in the PFE? I thought they were very close until somewhere between 150 and 170 hours of burn in on the IE8.

I actually think the IE8 is easier to place in my ears than the PFE was, as I had to adjust the PFEs a little bit to get the best sound/comfort, but they were slightly more comfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstarn06 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So do you feel the PFEs are a worthy phone, at least in the ballpark of a top tier IEM? Just curious. I guess the soundstage deal is the major difference.

You didn't ask me, but I will hijack your response and interject my opinion

With the grey filters the soundstage is a difference (not too major IMHO), but the sound sig is significantly different.

With the black filters, there is a small sound sig difference, large soundstage difference, and noticeable detail difference.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, but you watch. Most of these threads end up with 90% of the thread consisting of debate/argument about the scientific validity of burn-in (and nothing new is ever said), and only about 10% ends up being responsive to the initial post. And, again, we have a Sound Science forum so that folks who want to discuss this stuff can do so without diverting other threads.

Can't say I don't agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, my experience with full size headphones is that they burn-in, presumably due to the diaphragms loosening up over time. My experience with the IE8's is that the sound changed also, comparing 0-10 hours to 100+ hours. (I didn't listen to them at all between 10 and 100 hours, so I don't think my brain burned-in.) Plus I've listened to a lot of music and lots of combinations of sources, amps, and phones. I know when something sounds different on a musical selection that I am so familiar with that I know the precise sound and placement of every note.

I completely agree with what you just said. Most of my burn in was not with the IE8s on my head, as i was listening to the then more enjoyable PFEs.