[jellojoe]

After the "limited" HF-2 debacle, I certainly will not be buying any more "limited" edition Grado phones.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

 but I certainly would have appreciated it if we had been told in the first place that they would be produced until the demand petered-out.  When you tell people that they better buy a pair before they sell out/a certain date just to turn around and offer them twice again is kind of a cheat, no matter how you look at it. 

That's exactly what they said about them!  That they would make them until demand petered-out.  Sometimes head-fiers baffle me.  If you don't like their business practices then don't buy them.  You and roy Jones clearly have never spoken to Todd on the phone.  He's an awesome guy, he really cares about our experience and runs one of the best businesses I've run into online. 
 
If there were any misconceptions it was because the community goes so crazy with all the wondering and rumor and guessing in all the excitement.  Which is fun and understandable, but Todd/Grado are not to blame.  They felt horrible about the mistake and they offered refunds, so YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO BUY IT.
 
First we have someone saying they wish the HF3 was done by a different brand, and now this BS.  Wow 
 
Once again, special head-fi phones are not exclusive to Grado.  Anyone is welcome to step up.  Grado and Todd came up with the idea and they're the only ones who have done it. 
 

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

 

Your arguments aren't at all contrived and are free of the bias that plagues most discussions pertaining to this topic.  The "Their Back" thread in the Sponsor section of the forums is filled with banter and and angst... it reflects rather poorly on our online society.  What I think is important is that a lesson is taken from this.  I love my HF2s and that's what matters to me in the end. 

I can say that I would not have purchased my HF-2's had I known that they were going to be continually available.  It cost me about $100 over their current market value to get them into Canada at the time.  
 
What's ironic is that I was suspicious of much that has come to pass at the outset, so therefore I have no excuses, but as you said, ultimately it's about whether you like the headphones.  I do.
 
Were they everything I'd hoped for?  No.  I think they were very carefully designed to fall into exactly the price category they do, with performance that mirrors that objective.  I happen to like the particular sound signature of the HF-2, but I don't put it on a level of refinement at or above that of the RS-1.  The HF-1 was the same price as the 225 and I can tell you that it hits at a higher weight class.  
 
On one level, I'm impressed with how Grado rolled the HF-2 out.    From a business stand point, they used the HF-1 success beautifully to essentially dupe people into creating false demand for a much more profitable endeavor.  What you have to understand is that the HF-1 was a failure for Grado.  The HF-2 is an attempt to take the very things that made the HF-1 a good value for head-fiers, that by very virtue of that fact Grado would never in a hundred years repeat, and instead use the limited edition status and high price/performance ratio of the original as the basis for the bait and switch.
 
It's been very transparent throughout.  That's why i have mixed feelings about griping about it, as I can't even claim to be surprised.  Again, it ultimately comes down to the cans
 
 
 
     

 

[Darksyde]

 
Quote:

That's exactly what they said about them!  That they would make them until demand petered-out.  Sometimes head-fiers baffle me.  If you don't like their business practices then don't buy them.  You and roy Jones clearly have never spoken to Todd on the phone.  He's an awesome guy, he really cares about our experience and runs one of the best businesses I've run into online. 
 
If there were any misconceptions it was because the community goes so crazy with all the wondering and rumor and guessing in all the excitement.  Which is fun and understandable, but Todd/Grado are not to blame.  They felt horrible about the mistake and they offered refunds, so YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO BUY IT.
 
First we have someone saying they wish the HF3 was done by a different brand, and now this BS.  Wow 
 
Once again, special head-fi phones are not exclusive to Grado.  Anyone is welcome to step up.  Grado and Todd came up with the idea and they're the only ones who have done it. 
 

You seem to be holding a grudge against me... is it because I ruined your fun in trying to make a profit off of your HF2s?
 
Nowhere have I complained or criticized John and Todd.  I'm thoroughly happy with the product that they have produced and can't even begin to fathom what a headache it has been for them.  I actually received my pair from a fellow head-fier, so lets not make an ass out of you and me (feel free to laugh if you like my joke).  If you would indulge me, could you quote where and when it was said that the HF2s would be produced indefinitely?  While that is not an issue to me, I do feel that it is something worth noting. 
 

 

[rhythmdevils]

I don't know it's nothing personal I'm sure you're a nice guy.  I just think it's a bummer that a company can't make a special product tailored to the head-fi community, without so much complaining.  If I were Todd/John I would never come on head-fi again.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

I don't know it's nothing personal I'm sure you're a nice guy.  I just think it's a bummer that a company can't make a special product tailored to the head-fi community, without so much complaining.  If I were Todd/John I would never come on head-fi again.

Is it possible that you're assuming this is more personal in nature than it actually is for any of the characters involved? 
 
It's unfortunate, because it's people like yourself that I feel have been taken advantage of in this type of scenario.  What's funny is that I bet we could go back to the original HF-2 thread and find posts of me saying much of what I've been saying before it had come to pass, and there really isn't much change in the tone of the discussions.  I don't say that to pat myself on the back but to illustrate how we constantly adjust our memories and narratives to fit the current data with expectations.  
 
Maybe the most relevant current example is the debate about whether the HF-2 was ever intended to be a limited edition headphone.  I specifically remember them shutting down at around #450 and all the sales pitches at the time to take advantage before it's too late!  But notice how the narrative of events get twisted by vested parties?  Interesting to have watched all the way through, and still be watching....
 

 

[rhythmdevils]

"From a business stand point, they used the HF-1 success beautifully to essentially dupe people into creating false demand for a much more profitable endeavor. "
 
That is absurd and fairly offensive.  You're the one making assumptions here. 

 

[Darksyde]

 
Quote:

I don't know it's nothing personal I'm sure you're a nice guy.  I just think it's a bummer that a company can't make a special product tailored to the head-fi community, without so much complaining.  If I were Todd/John I would never come on head-fi again.

 
Thank you for being civil and reasonable.  The way we're (head-fi community) behaving and insulting John and Todd is deplorable... we pride ourselves on being intelligent discerning-consumers and yet we're acting like spoiled brats (ie. "I hate my HF2s!  I can't stand the way they sit on my head because the little underscore that should be there under the "1" to make it an "I" is missing, which makes them too heavy.")
 
I would like to rescind my previous HF3 suggestion.  It would be better if we could put an end to this whole fiasco, as few people have ultimately benefited from it.
 
Edit: I maintain that the marketing for them was not as clear as it should have been and the meanings of some words were stretched.  It is starting to look less and less like a true gift to us head-fiers as new events transpire (and I hardly feel that these are exclusive to us as there is no post requirement or sign up date.  Anyone can see them for sale and make an account.).

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

"From a business stand point, they used the HF-1 success beautifully to essentially dupe people into creating false demand for a much more profitable endeavor. "
 
That is absurd and fairly offensive.  You're the one making assumptions here. 

 
I've made a few substantial claims and it's interesting that you chose to center on that one.  Weren't we just discussing your claim that the HF-2 was never marketed as a limited edition headphone? 
 
That would seem to me to be a point of debate upon which we should be able to reach an objective conclusion. 


I'd be quite happy to keep this a discussion of the facts. 

 

[Uncle Erik]

It's hard to believe how much ethics and morality are rolled into the HF headphones. They're just headphones. It doesn't matter if you buy them or not.

I enjoy the HF-1 and HF-2. I think they were good value for the money and I'm glad some of the proceeds went to Head-Fi. My enjoyment doesn't depend on how many other people have them, whether they're still available, or if people are selling them at a profit on eBay.

 

[rhythmdevils]

I certainly remember Todd saying multiple times when asked how many would be made, that they would make them until demand came down, but not forever.  But I don't really care that's not my point.
 
They didn't dupe anyone, it wasn't a big plot and scheme for profit.  It was a fun headphone that's all.  Todd makes less profit on HF2's than any other grado.

 

[Darksyde]

Quote:

It's hard to believe how much ethics and morality are rolled into the HF headphones. They're just headphones. It doesn't matter if you buy them or not.

I enjoy the HF-1 and HF-2. I think they were good value for the money and I'm glad some of the proceeds went to Head-Fi. My enjoyment doesn't depend on how many other people have them, whether they're still available, or if people are selling them at a profit on eBay.

Well said, Uncle Erik!  Any chance you could officially become a head-fi mod?  You'd wear the vest well (unless you'd appreciate a metaphorical hat more).
 

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

It's hard to believe how much ethics and morality are rolled into the HF headphones. They're just headphones. It doesn't matter if you buy them or not.

I enjoy the HF-1 and HF-2. I think they were good value for the money and I'm glad some of the proceeds went to Head-Fi. My enjoyment doesn't depend on how many other people have them, whether they're still available, or if people are selling them at a profit on eBay.

All of which is great, Eric, but whether you like it or not, there are issues involving morality and ethics whenever business takes place.  I think all parties here have taken pains to delineate the difference between complaining about the products themselves and the business practices that went into selling them. 
 
When the issue with the misprint happened, I said I could care less and have never been critical about that manufacturing mistake.  However, where things went wrong was when people tried to claim that they hadn't been aware of the problem until someone is actually sitting at home opening one of the first boxes.  Again, it's important to really distinguish what's being talked about here. 
 
If you were one of the people who stayed up all night waiting for the final 20 or so headphones to be released as the final batch of the HF-2 production run, under the pretense that if you missed the opportunity you were likely to have to pay an inflated premium on the secondary market, you might have a legitimate issue about how things were represented. 

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

"From a business stand point, they used the HF-1 success beautifully to essentially dupe people into creating false demand for a much more profitable endeavor. "
 
That is absurd and fairly offensive.  You're the one making assumptions here. 

I honestly think that if I were to sit down in a room with John off-the-record and rephrased it in a way that used business terminology and practice, he may not even object to the characterization.  And personally, I don't have a problem with most of how the HF-2 has come out.  For example, I've never complained about the printing or workmanship issues that are commonly discussed. 
 
It may sound backhanded, but I really was being genuine when I said I admired the business angle.  It's not easy to identify or create the type of opportunity that the HF-2 afforded him coming from the disaster that was the HF-1.  He made a HF can that could work for him on his terms.  He made lemons into lemonade and in precisely the manner necessary to make it a business success. 
 
   

 

[Anaxilus]

So umm....yeah.  I'd like a HF3 to be based around the RS-1 driver.  No idea if that would be compatible w/ Jumbos but if tuneable why not.  I do love the look of Grado wood cups over everything else though w/ metal as a second choice IMO.  Perhaps a unique type of wood that is not unreasonable as a consideration for the project but unique enough to differentiate itself.  And I want John Grado to sign it '3rd times a charm!' with a smiley wink emoticon.