[joseph69]

I've been listening to the Utopia for 5 nights nights consecutively now, and although I'm impressed with their precision/attack/ and detail this time around, I find them a bit cold sounding and lacking in regards to musical expression for my preferences. They also have a strange tonality too me as well which I can't express in words, and the same goes for the Clear.

Immediately after listening to the Utopia last night, I listened to my 009 last (which I haven't listened to in over a week) to keep the Utopia's sound as fresh as I could in my memory from the past 5 night, and I definitely prefer the musicality the 009 deliver much, much more. Too me, their presentation is much warmer and involving, as well as having a very unique way of unifying the life like sounding instruments/vocals, and not to mention their much larger overall sound presence.

I'm not knocking the Utopia at all (which I've done my first time around) it's an impressive headphone for sure, but I would never even consider retiring my Stax for them, nevertheless purchasing them even though their impressive. The reason I borrowed the Utopia (again) was to compare them to my Stax and consider possibly downsizing and putting some cash in my pocket as well (why not, right?) but this definitely isn't the case for me, but I can understand why people enjoy them. Enjoy!

 

[Svatopluk]

Without something resembling a consistent reference system, and without having at least a couple of the top inductees on hand at all times, the wall of fame is a pointless joke. How long has it been since the BHSE / 009 review? Since then, the 009 point of reference has been going off the long stale memory of that, plus the more recent memory of 009 on the vastly inferior KGSS "Reviewer edition" amp.

I heard the Elear/Clear/Utopia 2 week ago, and crowning the Clear above the Utopia is a joke. Tyll needs to hang 'em up.

Tyll preferred the Clear over the Utopia on his setup. On my setup (Gumby > V280), the treble spike and inadequate bass he noted is non-existent with the Utopia. I believe he will always favor a relaxed presentation as opposed to a more precise one.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I have been withholding my thoughts, but I guess I will finally chime in on this issue with the Utopia and the WoF.

First, I don't really care if it's not on his WoF anymore.
But I don't think the inclusion of the Utopia on the WoF is really the root of the problem. It seems like some don't know the history of what happened in this particular instance with the Utopia. Tyll declared the Utopia the best headphone in the world, but it was later found that his Utopia was a unicorn with a warmer tilt (displayed in measurements). With some exceptions, Tyll has been up front, since I have been a member of head-fi, that he tends to prefer headphones slightly darker than neutral. The odd one out here is that he prefers the HD600 to the HD650, but I suspect there are other reasons for that (I also prefer the HD600 to the HD650). The original HD800 was on the WoF for its technicalities (same with SR-009), but he was upfront about his preference for it being modded to make it warmer than stock. Because Tyll has a preference for a slightly warmer headphone, and since he was the only reviewer we know of to receive a Utopia with this tuning, people suspected that Focal had purposely tuned it in order to garner a higher review. Others just said it was a "flaw" in manufacturing. Tyll concluded this as well, based on Focal's word, but has recently hinted that we can never know for sure, opening up the possibility to be skeptical of Focal's words. The bottom line is that we don't know and never will, so one has to make up his or her own mind.

Either way, this controversial removal of the Utopia from the WoF is a particularly unfortunate case for those who relied on Innerfidelity. Although several venerable headphones have been removed from the WoF over the years (HD800, LCD-3, etc.), this carries more weight, precisely because it was declared to be the best headphone in the world. If you watch his original video with his "flawed" Utopia, his enthusiasm is contagious and even surpasses that of his recent Clear video. Cross-referenced with the glowing reviews of the Utopia elsewhere, this review was very convincing and, together with the rest, may explain why a luxury $4K headphone, unthinkable for a dynamic transducer years ago, was selling so fast at launch that distributors had trouble keeping them in stock. That a year and a half later the headphone garnering this much praise was removed is why this discussion continues. And even though in the end I don't base my understanding of the Utopia on its inclusion or removal, it's annoying to see such an extreme reversal of judgment as a result of being sent a warmer headphone than on the market.

My opinion is that he cannot be blamed for this reveral. It is incorrect to say he just changed his mind. For whatever reason, he received a different headphone than we all have, as became apparent in Bob Katz' negative review of the Utopia, which prompted Tyll to look into the matter. When Tyll heard Katz' brighter headphone, he was hearing the same headphone (more or less) we all have. Knowing Tyll's longstanding preferences, it is possible this version of the Utopia in fact would have still made the WoF but very unlikely it would have been nominated as the world's greatest headphone at the time. Perhaps the removal of the Utopia became thinkable, yes, in light of hearing the Clear's tonality (more suitable to Tyll's preferences), but I suspect he would have wished to do so earlier. His hint that he still is uncertain why he was originally sent a warmer Utopia may also betray a wish to punish Focal while rewarding them for the Clear's more accessible tonality. If the final production of the Utopia mirrored that which he received, it would have remained, not only on the WoF, but also as what he called the best headphone in the world. If Focal decides to release a version two of the Utopia with the latter's existing technicalities and the Clear's tonality, I could see it going back up in the same spot. This would likely be painful for initial Utopia buyers, but that's what happens. If not done officially, as with the HD800s, many companies have been known to issue "silent revisions" over time (most obviously Audeze but also Sennheiser, Schiit, and even Apple).

Many reviewers who have originally praised the "real," slightly brighter Utopia stand by their initial accolades. But it has proven over time to be a divisive headphone on the grounds that it is criticized for being too fatiguing. There is consistency between this group and Tyll's judgment of the real Utopia.

So the “broken one” was the holy grail?I will drop it but I lost confidence in him

That's absolutely fine. However he has screwed up otherwise, in this instance, this is not his fault. The original Utopia was deemed defective by Focal; its measurements indicate it was a unicorn and highly suitable for Tyll's preferences.

I don't always agree with Tyll either. Though I find him indispensable as a reviewer and have been led in the right direction more than once, I cannot always trust his opinion. For instance, his recommendation of the Ether C 1.1 included some of the same wording as we see with the Clear. In fact, he seems to have forgotten what he originally wrote in the Ether C 1.1 review. He writes in his Clear review: "For the first time I can unreservedly recommend a $1000+ headphone." Not the first time: I distinctly remember him writing, in memorable language, something to the effect that "even if you have to save your pennies for months on end or eat Ramen noodles for a year, etc. etc., the Ether C 1.1 (around $1500) is finally a headphone I can recommend without hesitation."* That sounds very similar to what he says in the recent Clear review; I am surprised no one else pointed it out. In this case, I don't always trust Tyll. But the Utopia example is not analogous. He received a significantly different Utopia in regards to tuning, and made his review based on that.

To be honest, this whole episode should be a red flag, not on Tyll, but on the entire industry. There is a lot going on the average consumer doesn't realize, and it's best to be cautious about the entire apparatus without finally allowing that to go too far and paralyze wise purchase decisions or enjoyment of headphones.

Despite all this unnecessary drama, I am a big fan of the Utopia and am definitely in agreement with Tobes' recent assessment of its merits above.

*Just found the passage I remembered on the Ether C review (which has since been displaced by the Aeon Closed): "Audio pros will be particularly pleased with a headphone you will soon learn to trust. College students, this is the one time I would say eating raman for two months is worth it. Headphone enthusiasts, this is the one sealed headphone to get. Headphone manufacturers, buy one right now and take a good hard look, you've got work to do." Again, it's clear the Clear is not the first time a $1K has been unequivocally endorsed by IF in such unambiguous terms!

 

[Liu Junyuan]

I've been listening to the Utopia for 5 nights nights consecutively now, and although I'm impressed with their precision/attack/ and detail this time around, I find them a bit cold sounding and lacking in regards to musical expression for my preferences. They also have a strange tonality too me as well which I can't express in words, and the same goes for the Clear.

Immediately after listening to the Utopia last night, I listened to my 009 last (which I haven't listened to in over a week) to keep the Utopia's sound as fresh as I could in my memory from the past 5 night, and I definitely prefer the musicality the 009 deliver much, much more. Too me, their presentation is much warmer and involving, as well as having a very unique way of unifying the life like sounding instruments/vocals, and not to mention their much larger overall sound presence.

I'm not knocking the Utopia at all (which I've done my first time around) it's an impressive headphone for sure, but I would never even consider retiring my Stax for them, nevertheless purchasing them even though their impressive. The reason I borrowed the Utopia (again) was to compare them to my Stax and consider possibly downsizing and putting some cash in my pocket as well (why not, right?) but this definitely isn't the case for me, but I can understand why people enjoy them. Enjoy!

Great writeup. I appreciate your ongoing comparisons a great deal. Interesting to see that your excitement has also waned on the Clears.

It may be that the Focal drivers, for whatever reason (say, their metal construction as opposed to the usual plastic drivers), sound artificial and sterile to you, no matter what the chain or components involved. On the other hand, while easy to drive, Focals are extremely revealing of upstream gear and thus require careful attention to synergy. While there exist several sources, such as Dave or Hugo 2, which pair well with all of the Focals (on report), it is not the case all amps/DACs will pair equally with both, on the same level of synergy. The Clear's lower impedance and higher bass hump (relative to Utopia) make them more sensitive to some amps that pair really with the Utopia's higher impedance. With the GSX-MKII, you don't have this problem at all; it ideally works amazingly for driving any headphone. But it is possible its tonal synergy is not doing the "cold" and unmusical timbre you are finding in the headphones through that amp any favors.

I really respect items in your chain a great deal and frankly wish I owned both your main amp and your DAC. As we all know, a headphone really should not be evaluated by itself, especially one like the Utopia. It comes as a package with amp/DAC. Many people with warmer setups than yours have made similar criticisms, to be fair. In this case, the GSX-MKII perhaps is allowing you to hear the headphone most transparently. On the other hand, that kind of pairing is likely not going add warmth to the Utopia one bit and would not be my first pick if I was considering building a system around the Utopia. I would think you'd need to be even more particular about perfect masterings than is already the case with the Utopia itself. I would think GSX would be perfect for an LCD-4/HEK rig, not so much the Utopia for long-term. But admittedly I am just going off written impressions and haven't heard the pairing myself! Your description of it being cold and lacking in musicality from that amazing amp does not surprise me. Maybe try one of those other headphones TBH and stick with your amp.

TLDR: you might never like the Focal sound regardless. SR-009 is already an amazing headphone. But with headphones like Utopia (or for that matter SR-009), account should be given to amp pairings (or DACs and, for some, cables). Maybe that pairing is not synergizing according to your preferences and so it’s best to try another headphone (or stick with SR-009).

I did own the uRendu and actually think that this is likely really helping out in synergy in your setup. I still miss what the uRendu did with the Utopias. It was awesome. Very fluid and slightly laid back, yet beautiful and detailed source. It did impart its own character. Not as transparent as a non-USB source, but my Lynx (especially from Yggy) though more detailed and dynamic than the uRendu, can be slightly too bright and detailed through the Utopia, which exposes everything in the chain. I also thought the uRendu was more suitable as source than the Eitr, though the latter is far cheaper (considering the LPS for the uRendu) and arguably more transparent, while imparting less of the characteristic "musical" tonality of the uRendu. It would be nice if you had another amp around, or one that you could borrow, to see. Or do you still own the WA6?

In my chain, for instance, Yggy is not invariably the ideal DAC for something like Utopia for me with my sources, being more palatable with the uRendu. From what I heard from the Holo when I borrowed it, this was a better match, even though the Holo has excellent technicalities. If the Yggy (which is an amazing DAC) is slightly forward, in your face, 100% on full-engagement all the time, barring you from sleep, demanding attention, etc., this is actually how I would describe the Utopia too. Together, a transparently sourced—via AES input—Yggy and Utopia can amount to "too much of a good thing." I purchased a vintage Sonic Frontiers SFD-MKII, and this DAC for instance synergizes better for all kinds of music, while the Yggy is better for classical and live recordings and, assuming the masterings are well done, sounds sublime through the Utopia, which reveals everything. Like the Holo, the SFD (using a tube output stage) throws a larger head stage through the Utopias, which have been accused of having a small (though deeply layered and precise) stage. The softer, rounder, spacious, and slightly sweet timbre imparted by the nevertheless formidably resolving Frontiers DAC plays so nicely with the sharply defined, dynamic, forward, and nimble presentation of the Utopia. A similar idea is at work with my amp, to be frank. I really would like to hear the GSX with my Frontiers DAC now.

 

[ubs28]

incorrect



correct. the headphones remain on the wof until they are "knocked off" by more worthy successors - in tyll's opinion. the headphones that have been removed from the wof are returned to the manufacturer - according to tyll.



tyll uses the moon 430ha, which isn't too shabby, for his subjective listening impressions. he never said that the beryllium driver is bad as far as i can recall.

if folks feel compelled to go after tyll about this then they should try and get their facts straight at least.

Bob Katz, the legendary sound engineer thinks the 430HA is crap. So according to what “facts” is the 430HA good?

I will see if I can find this 430HA somewhere to do some testing.

 

[bflat]

correct. the headphones remain on the wof until they are "knocked off" by more worthy successors - in tyll's opinion. the headphones that have been removed from the wof are returned to the manufacturer - according to tyll.

Correction noted. However this raises more questions for me. OEMs allow Tyll to keep $4,000+ headphones as long as it remains on the wall? Brilliant! Hard to see pure objectivity IMHO but perhaps I’m just naive.

 

[paul30d]

Because Tyll has a preference for a slightly warmer headphone, and since he was the only reviewer we know of to receive a Utopia with this tuning, people suspected that Focal had purposely tuned it in order to garner a higher review. Others just said it was a "flaw" in manufacturing. Tyll concluded this as well, based on Focal's word, but has recently hinted that we can never know for sure, opening up the possibility to be skeptical of Focal's words.

If Focal were able to tweak the Utopia slightly to warm it up and make it "the best headphone in the world", the tweak would be on all production units by now. Why would they have limited it to one unit sent to one reviewer? And the odds of a manufucturing "flaw" turning one sample into something truly special (above all others) are extremely low. I think the guy just wanted to back away from a review that he prepared with a little too much enthusiasm, and this gave him a way to do it without losing credibility. I wonder how many people could pick the difference between the two headphone samples that he was supplied with, even if they did measure a bit differently - were they really that different?. Anyway... who cares whether it is still hanging on his wall of fame or not. If I was Focal, I would be very happy. the Utopia has been knocked off by their own new model which is more accessible to more people and will probably sell far better than the Utopia.

 

[up late]

Bob Katz, the legendary sound engineer thinks the 430HA is crap. So according to what “facts” is the 430HA good?

I will see if I can find this 430HA somewhere to do some testing.

i refer you back to my post. if you read over it you will see that i quoted three posts, including yours. the matters of fact that i believe are incorrect relate to tyll's wall of fame and your claim that he said the (utopia) "full range be driver headphone is bad". i think that you're misrepresenting tyll there because i don't recall him saying any such thing, but feel free to correct me if i'm mistaken by reproducing what he said or wrote here, or directing me to it.

with regard to the moon 430ha, i was responding to your suspicion that tyll doesn't use "very high quality equipment" for his headphone reviews. it's marketed as a high-end amp/dac combo, which is what i meant by describing it as not "too shabby". if you choose to attach more value to bob katz's opinion of it than tyll's, then that's your prerogative. that is not a matter of fact, however.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

If Focal were able to tweak the Utopia slightly to warm it up and make it "the best headphone in the world", the tweak would be on all production units by now. Why would they have limited it to one unit sent to one reviewer? And the odds of a manufucturing "flaw" turning one sample into something truly special (above all others) are extremely low. I think the guy just wanted to back away from a review that he prepared with a little too much enthusiasm, and this gave him a way to do it without losing credibility. I wonder how many people could pick the difference between the two headphone samples that he was supplied with, even if they did measure a bit differently - were they really that different?. Anyway... who cares whether it is still hanging on his wall of fame or not. If I was Focal, I would be very happy. the Utopia has been knocked off by their own new model which is more accessible to more people and will probably sell far better than the Utopia.

That’s an interesting theory. I never considered that. I considered the measurements, which were really that different. If random people cannot pick out the differences, that doesn’t say much. Some people can’t tell or don’t care to tell the difference between a Folgers and a French Press. It appears to have went to a different qualitative state altogether in Tyll’s assessment (which is admittedly extreme), from world’s best headphone to flawed headphone with amazing technicalities but insufferable timbre, from water to ice. BTW I don’t agree the “real” Utopia, especially when paired smartly, is even close to having a screwed up FR, which could more rightly be attributed to other headphones I won’t name. In any case, the process of publicly seeking for people to send in Utopias for a larger sample of measurements (for which he covered shipping) and the back and forth with Focal themselves, for whatever reason, strikes me as a rather insufferably tedious and noisy way to go about a cover up for a simple change of heart. No need to do that for the other knocks off the wall.

But yeah, who cares at this point whether it is on the WoF so long as people know their preferences and have their synergies properly sorted?

 

[up late]

Correction noted. However this raises more questions for me. OEMs allow Tyll to keep $4,000+ headphones as long as it remains on the wall? Brilliant! Hard to see pure objectivity IMHO but perhaps I’m just naive.

fine. i'll leave the conjecture about tyll's review arrangements with headphone manufacturers to you.

 

[ubs28]

i refer you back to my post. if you read over it you will see that i quoted three posts, including yours. the matters of fact that i believe are incorrect relate to tyll's wall of fame and your claim that he said the (utopia) "full range be driver headphone is bad". i think that you're misrepresenting tyll there because i don't recall him saying any such thing, but feel free to correct me if i'm mistaken by reproducing what he said or wrote here, or directing me to it.

with regard to the moon 430ha, i was responding to your suspicion that tyll doesn't use "very high quality equipment" for his headphone reviews. it's marketed as a high-end amp/dac combo, which is what i meant by describing it as not "too shabby". if you choose to attach more value to bob katz's opinion of it than tyll's, then that's your prerogative. that is not a matter of fact, however.

He basically replaced the LCD-4 and the Focal Utopia by Focal Clear, so he basically ranks it higher. So he basically doesn’t value the Be technology that $200.000 speakers don’t even have.

You were the one who said I needed to get my facts straight, which is why I put facts in quotations marks.

And if something is marketed as a high-end DAC + amplifier doesn’t automatically mean it also performs like that.

 

[banco-sg]

If this keep continues, utopia thread is going to be locked, just like how Z1R was locked.
Funny thing, it’s always been the same reason and the same person that is involved.

 

[up late]

He basically replaced the LCD-4 and the Focal Utopia by Focal Clear, so he basically ranks it higher. So he basically doesn’t value the Be technology that $200.000 speakers don’t even have.

You were the one who said I needed to get my facts straight, which is why I put facts in quotations marks.

And if something is marketed as a high-end DAC + amplifier doesn’t automatically mean it also performs like that.

now you're being evasive. it's a straightforward question - can you provide any evidence in support of this statement that you attributed to tyll hertsen: "But then Tyll just says that this full range Be driver headphone is bad..."?

i didn't comment on the moon 430ha's performance, i was simply pointing out to you that the moon 430ha is marketed/regarded as a high-end head-amp/dac combo. you're the one making the assumptions here.

 

[paul30d]

But yeah, who cares at this point whether it is on the WoF so long as people know their preferences and have their synergies properly sorted?

When I bought my Utopias, I did not even know that they were on the WoF. Headphones are such a personal thing - even more so than speakers I think. If a reviewer likes or dislikes a certain model, you cannot assume that you will form the same opinion. So I still find the whole WoF thing a bit dubious. Having the Utopias drop off the list won't hurt sales, which have probably stabilized by now. Putting the Clears there is a huge commercial boost to Focal.

 

[ubs28]

now you're being evasive. it's a straightforward question - can you provide any evidence in support of this statement that you attributed to tyll hertsen: "But then Tyll just says that this full range Be driver headphone is bad..."?

i didn't comment on the moon 430ha's performance, i was simply pointing out to you that the moon 430ha is marketed as a high-end amp/dac, rather than a budget one. you're the one making the assumptions here.

It is pretty obvious that headphones like the Utopia and LCD-4 are not good enough anymore. I don’t need to explain that.

I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here and I really see no point of proceeding with this “discussion” as I don’t consider it as a real discussion at all.

If this was a discussion about how headphones should be reviewed, then I was interested. But this is a complete waste of time.