flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Apr 29, 2021 at 12:47 AM Post #30,811 of 39,414
Since you have the real degrees, I'll relax and listen to music, and learn from you, not a stranger on Google. Your classical thread is fantastic!
Not sure how real those degrees are because I seem to be working an awful lot for very little pay or recognition. 🤣 Thanks! The classical music series will be back soon. I had a few regular reviews in between and busy with teaching, but am getting back to it as we speak. Really like doing something a bit different, so good to hear people enjoy it.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 2:42 AM Post #30,812 of 39,414
Here's one from left field: Andromeda. Granted I haven't heard the 2020, but the OG and SS Andromeda must be the most meek, uninspiring excuses for 'TOTL' IEMs I've heard. They were actually the first 'high end' IEMs I'd heard, coming from full size headphones, and while I actually quite enjoyed the treble response, the bass was so meek I had to double check I had a seal. And the mids were just meh. If this was the gold standard for kilobuck IEMs I was not impressed. Had several extended sessions with them over time, with a variety of OI sources, and every time I preferred far cheaper and more enjoyable IEMs. If you enjoy bass in your music, avoid at all costs.

Interestingly around the same time I heard my first real high end IEM, the much discussed U12t, which set me on the road to transitioning from full size headphones to all portable. Say what you like about it, it's the best tuned IEM I've heard to date (don't laugh, sharing a spot with the BLON BL-03, through in a parallel universe of course - and my 03 seems to be very special unicorn). The 12t is simply on point with everything. Even the bass is excellent, albeit BA. As for emotional engagement, I do get it, but if the 12t isn't engaging, then Andro will drive you to hari-kiri. I found true enjoyment with the 12t, the first transducer of any kind (short of high-end speakers) that made me feel like I wasn't listening to a vocal recording.

Hope that adds some spice to the mix.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 3:11 AM Post #30,813 of 39,414
Here's one from left field: Andromeda. Granted I haven't heard the 2020, but the OG and SS Andromeda must be the most meek, uninspiring excuses for 'TOTL' IEMs I've heard. They were actually the first 'high end' IEMs I'd heard, coming from full size headphones, and while I actually quite enjoyed the treble response, the bass was so meek I had to double check I had a seal. And the mids were just meh. If this was the gold standard for kilobuck IEMs I was not impressed. Had several extended sessions with them over time, with a variety of OI sources, and every time I preferred far cheaper and more enjoyable IEMs. If you enjoy bass in your music, avoid at all costs.

Interestingly around the same time I heard my first real high end IEM, the much discussed U12t, which set me on the road to transitioning from full size headphones to all portable. Say what you like about it, it's the best tuned IEM I've heard to date (don't laugh, sharing a spot with the BLON BL-03, through in a parallel universe of course - and my 03 seems to be very special unicorn). The 12t is simply on point with everything. Even the bass is excellent, albeit BA. As for emotional engagement, I do get it, but if the 12t isn't engaging, then Andro will drive you to hari-kiri. I found true enjoyment with the 12t, the first transducer of any kind (short of high-end speakers) that made me feel like I wasn't listening to a vocal recording.

Hope that adds some spice to the mix.
Vision Ears’ VE8 tends to fall in the same camp of the jack-of-all-trades. It’s how I described the VxV in my upcoming review of it as well: An in-ear that just rides with the music. As others have mentioned, what may turn off the U12t for some people is its lack of a warm, soulful pull; the ability to allure or seduce, perhaps. But, again, that’d be in exchange for the U12t’s fantastic measuredness and neutrality as well, so it’s all a game of trades. I’d definitely be for 64’s next custom flagship being something in line with the U12t’s linear, straight-edged tone, but with even more technique and imaging.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 3:17 AM Post #30,814 of 39,414
Vision Ears’ VE8 tends to fall in the same camp of the jack-of-all-trades. It’s how I described the VxV in my upcoming review of it as well: An in-ear that just rides with the music. As others have mentioned, what may turn off the U12t for some people is its lack of a warm, soulful pull; the ability to allure or seduce, perhaps. But, again, that’d be in exchange for the U12t’s fantastic measuredness and neutrality as well, so it’s all a game of trades. I’d definitely be for 64’s next custom flagship being something in line with the U12t’s linear, straight-edged tone, but with even more technique and imaging.
That's what everyone was saying the A/U18s was, and as it turns out, it wasn't. So yes, make a U12t with maxed out technicalities and a touch of inoffensive spice and you have a winner. I'd love to see the U12t tuning/technicalities with a DD in the mix. Nio isn't it. N8 isn't it. Can it even be done I wonder?
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 3:35 AM Post #30,815 of 39,414
Haven't yet checked out that album (the third, right?). Mostly been listening to 'We Are Not Your Kind', 'The Grey Chapter' and a lot now to their self-titled debut album. 'Iowa' I have not been able to get into because of how dark it is, but it might still come because I initially did not get into 'Slipknot' either and love the album now. Was just listening while cooking, but it is especially good when I hit the gym. 😁

hey @Wyville , you know/have Tool albums right ?

I find Slipknot to be 'nu-metal for teenagers' , too much angst and anger there (besides being too loud/noise for me)

Try these 2 albums by them , see what you think

Aenima (1996)
Lateralus (2001)
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 3:41 AM Post #30,816 of 39,414
That's what everyone was saying the A/U18s was, and as it turns out, it wasn't. So yes, make a U12t with maxed out technicalities and a touch of inoffensive spice and you have a winner. I'd love to see the U12t tuning/technicalities with a DD in the mix. Nio isn't it. N8 isn't it. Can it even be done I wonder?
I personally find the A18S to be an improved A12t in almost every way honestly. I’ve been listening to the A12t a lot recently since JH has my A18S for scanning, and there is so much resemblance between the two to my ears

I do love linear IEMs though, so a new 64 flagship that builds upon the A18S/A12t would be something I’d get in a heartbeat
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 3:55 AM Post #30,817 of 39,414
That's what everyone was saying the A/U18s was, and as it turns out, it wasn't. So yes, make a U12t with maxed out technicalities and a touch of inoffensive spice and you have a winner. I'd love to see the U12t tuning/technicalities with a DD in the mix. Nio isn't it. N8 isn't it. Can it even be done I wonder?
The U/A18s was likened to the A12t; not the U12t. The common consensus based on impressions and measurements is that the A12t is warmer-sounding than the U12t. So, the comparison against the U/A18s would indeed be accurate.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 4:01 AM Post #30,818 of 39,414
Wow, lots of U12t talk. I guess I have to drop my 2 cents as the resident U12t shill. At this point, I've put hundreds of hours onto my U12t, so I think I have a pretty good feel for where I stand with it.

IMG_0151.jpg


eye-candy so you don't have to stare at my wall of text

The U12t has the best BA bass I've heard, but at the end of the day it's a compromise. By default, it's never going to quite match the best DD woofers. The U12t's midrange is ridiculously safe, but that's because it chooses to dip the upper-midrange which some might find sounds overly dampened. That's a compromise. It has terrific treble extension and air, but that's because of the tia tweeter's crazy treble peak. It's totally unnatural relative to what you'd hear in-real-life. Again - a compromise. Technicalities, I won't say it's not a very technical IEM, but the softer attack transients definitely take the edge off of perceived resolution. Furthermore, the cleaner, more natural pattern of decay the U12t exhibits, to eschew BA timbre, is a trade-off. To this end, I've found myself second-guessing its microdynamic ability lately, especially relative to the HD800S and Clear I have on-hand. The U12T has decent micro-detail for an IEM to be sure, but more intimate fluctuations themselves seem a tad smoothed over, particularly in terms of resonance.

There's a prevalent theme of middle-ground at hand, and I really do think that the U12t is the epitome of it in many respects. I've said this before, but the U12t's that kid in school who gets a 90% in every subject, but can't seem to get 100% in everything. If you want the best bass in an IEM then there's IER-Z1R, if you want the best midrange for male vocals then there's the VE8, if you want the best treble, again, there's IER-Z1R, and if you want the best technicalities go buy a KSE1500 or VX. As the type of person who always wants to own the best, that was one of the hardest things to come to terms with in this hobby. IEMs themselves, from inception, are a fat compromise in that they'll not match a headphone for many aspects of sound production.

But enough ragging on my favorite IEM. Aside from the tuning, I would say a large part of the reason I keep coming back to the U12T is for the impressive dynamic range. The way it scales and pushes into macrodynamic swings is incredible for an IEM, and most everything else I’ve heard comes off as somewhat flat by comparison. This is what largely qualifies so-called "engagement factor" to my ears (again, for me only). To come off of something like the Focal Clear, a headphone known for its terrific macrodynamic punch, and not be immediately disappointed is impressive. And then there's the U12t's center image which I don't hear talked about often. The U12t's upper-midrange recession and post-10kHz treble contrast create the psychoacoustic illusion of the sound actually projecting in front of a listener in a speaker-like manner. It's uncanny, and intended by 64 Audio or not, distinctive to me of what the right synergy between tuning and intangibles can pull-off. Heck, I've yet to hear a headphone that does center image like the U12t can. This is one IEM I don't think I'm ever going to be able to stop talking about (and yes, I've literally gotten complaints from people dreading their favorite IEM being compared to the U12t). Like so, for a lot of people it'll just be the IEM that gets the most done right and makes the least mistakes. And you know what? I'm cool with that because that's pretty darn commendable of itself too.
 
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Apr 29, 2021 at 4:51 AM Post #30,819 of 39,414
Wow, lots of U12t talk. I guess I have to drop my 2 cents as the resident U12t shill. At this point, I've put hundreds of hours onto my U12t, so I think I have a pretty good feel for where I stand with it.

IMG_0151.jpg

eye-candy so you don't have to stare at my wall of text

The U12t has the best BA bass I've heard, but at the end of the day it's a compromise. By default, it's never going to quite match the best DD woofers. The U12t's midrange is ridiculously safe, but that's because it chooses to dip the upper-midrange which some might find sounds overly dampened. That's a compromise. It has terrific treble extension and air, but that's because of the tia tweeter's crazy treble peak. It's totally unnatural relative to what you'd hear in-real-life. Again - a compromise. Technicalities, I won't say it's not a very technical IEM, but the softer attack transients definitely take the edge off of perceived resolution. Furthermore, the cleaner, more natural pattern of decay the U12t exhibits, to eschew BA timbre, is a trade-off. To this end, I've found myself second-guessing its microdynamic ability lately, especially relative to the HD800S and Clear I have on-hand. The U12T has decent micro-detail for an IEM to be sure, but more intimate fluctuations themselves seem a tad smoothed over, particularly in terms of resonance.

There's a prevalent theme of middle-ground at hand, and I really do think that the U12t is the epitome of it in many respects. I've said this before, but the U12t's that kid in school who gets a 90% in every subject, but can't seem to get 100% in everything. If you want the best bass in an IEM then there's IER-Z1R, if you want the best midrange for male vocals then there's the VE8, if you want the best treble, again, there's IER-Z1R, and if you want the best technicalities go buy a KSE1500 or VX. As the type of person who always wants to own the best, that was one of the hardest things to come to terms with in this hobby. IEMs themselves, from inception, are a fat compromise in that they'll not match a headphone for many aspects of sound production.

But enough ragging on my favorite IEM. Aside from the tuning, I would say a large part of the reason I keep coming back to the U12T is for the impressive dynamic range. The way it scales and pushes into macrodynamic swings is incredible for an IEM, and most everything else I’ve heard comes off as somewhat flat by comparison. This is what largely qualifies so-called "engagement factor" to my ears (again, for me only). To come off of something like the Focal Clear, a headphone known for its terrific macrodynamic punch, and not be immediately disappointed is impressive. And then there's the U12t's center image which I don't hear talked about often. The U12t's upper-midrange recession and post-10kHz treble contrast create the psychoacoustic illusion of the sound actually projecting in front of a listener in a speaker-like manner. It's uncanny, and intended by 64 Audio or not, distinctive to me of what the right synergy between tuning and intangibles can pull-off. Heck, I've yet to hear a headphone that does center image like the U12t can. This is one IEM I don't think I'm ever going to be able to stop talking about (and yes, I've literally gotten complaints from people dreading their favorite IEM being compared to the U12t). Like so, for a lot of people it'll just be the IEM that gets the most done right and makes the least mistakes. And you know what? I'm cool with that because that's pretty darn commendable of itself too.
Awesome impressions, man. Dynamic range was also my point of praise when I revisited the U12t on my CanJam SG 2019 impressions. It’s what hugely separated it from the A6t, despite their similar tonalities, and it’s also what put it among the best - technique-wise - on the day for me.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 5:45 AM Post #30,820 of 39,414
hey @Wyville , you know/have Tool albums right ?

I find Slipknot to be 'nu-metal for teenagers' , too much angst and anger there (besides being too loud/noise for me)

Try these 2 albums by them , see what you think

Aenima (1996)
Lateralus (2001)
Well, mentally I'm still a bit of a teenager and I like the anger when I am training, helps me get through the burn. 😜

Thanks! Will check out those albums. Qobuz has extended my trial and so I can keep exploring. Really fun you know... listening to music instead of listening to gear. 😂

Edit: Almost forgot the obligatory Barnie picture...
Barnie ball.jpg
 
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Apr 29, 2021 at 6:38 AM Post #30,821 of 39,414
Wow, lots of U12t talk. I guess I have to drop my 2 cents as the resident U12t shill. At this point, I've put hundreds of hours onto my U12t, so I think I have a pretty good feel for where I stand with it.

IMG_0151.jpg

eye-candy so you don't have to stare at my wall of text

The U12t has the best BA bass I've heard, but at the end of the day it's a compromise. By default, it's never going to quite match the best DD woofers. The U12t's midrange is ridiculously safe, but that's because it chooses to dip the upper-midrange which some might find sounds overly dampened. That's a compromise. It has terrific treble extension and air, but that's because of the tia tweeter's crazy treble peak. It's totally unnatural relative to what you'd hear in-real-life. Again - a compromise. Technicalities, I won't say it's not a very technical IEM, but the softer attack transients definitely take the edge off of perceived resolution. Furthermore, the cleaner, more natural pattern of decay the U12t exhibits, to eschew BA timbre, is a trade-off. To this end, I've found myself second-guessing its microdynamic ability lately, especially relative to the HD800S and Clear I have on-hand. The U12T has decent micro-detail for an IEM to be sure, but more intimate fluctuations themselves seem a tad smoothed over, particularly in terms of resonance.

There's a prevalent theme of middle-ground at hand, and I really do think that the U12t is the epitome of it in many respects. I've said this before, but the U12t's that kid in school who gets a 90% in every subject, but can't seem to get 100% in everything. If you want the best bass in an IEM then there's IER-Z1R, if you want the best midrange for male vocals then there's the VE8, if you want the best treble, again, there's IER-Z1R, and if you want the best technicalities go buy a KSE1500 or VX. As the type of person who always wants to own the best, that was one of the hardest things to come to terms with in this hobby. IEMs themselves, from inception, are a fat compromise in that they'll not match a headphone for many aspects of sound production.

But enough ragging on my favorite IEM. Aside from the tuning, I would say a large part of the reason I keep coming back to the U12T is for the impressive dynamic range. The way it scales and pushes into macrodynamic swings is incredible for an IEM, and most everything else I’ve heard comes off as somewhat flat by comparison. This is what largely qualifies so-called "engagement factor" to my ears (again, for me only). To come off of something like the Focal Clear, a headphone known for its terrific macrodynamic punch, and not be immediately disappointed is impressive. And then there's the U12t's center image which I don't hear talked about often. The U12t's upper-midrange recession and post-10kHz treble contrast create the psychoacoustic illusion of the sound actually projecting in front of a listener in a speaker-like manner. It's uncanny, and intended by 64 Audio or not, distinctive to me of what the right synergy between tuning and intangibles can pull-off. Heck, I've yet to hear a headphone that does center image like the U12t can. This is one IEM I don't think I'm ever going to be able to stop talking about (and yes, I've literally gotten complaints from people dreading their favorite IEM being compared to the U12t). Like so, for a lot of people it'll just be the IEM that gets the most done right and makes the least mistakes. And you know what? I'm cool with that because that's pretty darn commendable of itself too.
Awesome post man! Even more impressive if you put on some soft violin music while reading it. If anyone wants to know what makes U12t special, just point them to this post.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 7:17 AM Post #30,822 of 39,414
That's what everyone was saying the A/U18s was, and as it turns out, it wasn't. So yes, make a U12t with maxed out technicalities and a touch of inoffensive spice and you have a winner. I'd love to see the U12t tuning/technicalities with a DD in the mix. Nio isn't it. N8 isn't it. Can it even be done I wonder?
I believe it’s referred to as, Odin. 🤓
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 7:24 AM Post #30,823 of 39,414
hey @Wyville , you know/have Tool albums right ?

I find Slipknot to be 'nu-metal for teenagers' , too much angst and anger there (besides being too loud/noise for me)

Try these 2 albums by them , see what you think

Aenima (1996)
Lateralus (2001)
Funny actually listening to Lateralus right now.
I was thinking about checking out Slipknot because I have not done so. Maybe should just skip it.
 
Apr 29, 2021 at 7:33 AM Post #30,824 of 39,414
Wow, lots of U12t talk. I guess I have to drop my 2 cents as the resident U12t shill. At this point, I've put hundreds of hours onto my U12t, so I think I have a pretty good feel for where I stand with it.

IMG_0151.jpg

eye-candy so you don't have to stare at my wall of text

The U12t has the best BA bass I've heard, but at the end of the day it's a compromise. By default, it's never going to quite match the best DD woofers. The U12t's midrange is ridiculously safe, but that's because it chooses to dip the upper-midrange which some might find sounds overly dampened. That's a compromise. It has terrific treble extension and air, but that's because of the tia tweeter's crazy treble peak. It's totally unnatural relative to what you'd hear in-real-life. Again - a compromise. Technicalities, I won't say it's not a very technical IEM, but the softer attack transients definitely take the edge off of perceived resolution. Furthermore, the cleaner, more natural pattern of decay the U12t exhibits, to eschew BA timbre, is a trade-off. To this end, I've found myself second-guessing its microdynamic ability lately, especially relative to the HD800S and Clear I have on-hand. The U12T has decent micro-detail for an IEM to be sure, but more intimate fluctuations themselves seem a tad smoothed over, particularly in terms of resonance.

There's a prevalent theme of middle-ground at hand, and I really do think that the U12t is the epitome of it in many respects. I've said this before, but the U12t's that kid in school who gets a 90% in every subject, but can't seem to get 100% in everything. If you want the best bass in an IEM then there's IER-Z1R, if you want the best midrange for male vocals then there's the VE8, if you want the best treble, again, there's IER-Z1R, and if you want the best technicalities go buy a KSE1500 or VX. As the type of person who always wants to own the best, that was one of the hardest things to come to terms with in this hobby. IEMs themselves, from inception, are a fat compromise in that they'll not match a headphone for many aspects of sound production.

But enough ragging on my favorite IEM. Aside from the tuning, I would say a large part of the reason I keep coming back to the U12T is for the impressive dynamic range. The way it scales and pushes into macrodynamic swings is incredible for an IEM, and most everything else I’ve heard comes off as somewhat flat by comparison. This is what largely qualifies so-called "engagement factor" to my ears (again, for me only). To come off of something like the Focal Clear, a headphone known for its terrific macrodynamic punch, and not be immediately disappointed is impressive. And then there's the U12t's center image which I don't hear talked about often. The U12t's upper-midrange recession and post-10kHz treble contrast create the psychoacoustic illusion of the sound actually projecting in front of a listener in a speaker-like manner. It's uncanny, and intended by 64 Audio or not, distinctive to me of what the right synergy between tuning and intangibles can pull-off. Heck, I've yet to hear a headphone that does center image like the U12t can. This is one IEM I don't think I'm ever going to be able to stop talking about (and yes, I've literally gotten complaints from people dreading their favorite IEM being compared to the U12t). Like so, for a lot of people it'll just be the IEM that gets the most done right and makes the least mistakes. And you know what? I'm cool with that because that's pretty darn commendable of itself too.
Awesome post, couldn’t agree more with what you wrote. My U12T is going nowhere. Still I would love to hear your comparisons to Traillii.
 

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