[EagleWings]

Just to clarify : not what I wrote.

Sony doesn’t need to resort to this kind of tactics but I am not delusional, there is a pretty identifiable pattern for some of those posts (not all of course) that derailed it. It was just pretty tiresome to see user with no posts fueling the derailing of the thread, getting likes from users with a few fake posts. Not sure who or why but there was some manufacturing. At some point you need to call it out, not everyone knows about those patterns.

Anyway, both Ken and Crinacle posted a statement and I was the first to like crincale’s post.
He was instrumentalized by others there, of that I am convinced.
His answer was thoughtful and genuine and Campfire has contacted him so that they can figure out what happens.
This is how things get resolved, not in a public court with people fueling the fire for their own agenda.

Case closed!

I was following the thread closely and it didn't seem like they came with any agenda. You could tell, most of them were kids being sensitive and getting worked up. They ganged up, because that Kite dude called out Singapore/Singaporeans.

The point they were trying to make was simple. If 3 pairs of a certain model showed variations in its measurement, then there is a problem. As long as the measurer is careful and consistent, the variations shown in the measurements are valid. You don’t need a kilo-buck measuring system for that.

I know you are very impressed with your Solaris, which is evident in your review. But, how would I know, if what you received was a good pair or a dud? Yes, there has been instances in the past, where a dud pair turned out to be more accurate sounding, than the non-defective units. Look into the Utopia fiasco on Inndefidelity.

But yes, this need not have blown out of proportion. Inconsistencies between pairs is not at all new in the headphone realm. Beyerdynamic 1350, Audeze LCD2, LCD 4 just to name a few. For all you know, may be most IEM models, from most manufacturers have such variations between pairs (64Audio N8t a few weeks back). Campfire just turned out to be unfortunate to have this issue blow up in their face to such a scale.

 

[subguy812]

My eyes are fixated on JVC's HA-FW10000.

Such beauties.

They are beautiful and the JVC HA-FX850 always had a special place in my heart. If I could find a way to get them in the states, even on their next batch in February, I would buy some.

 

[Zhanming057]

I tend to disagree, but I think it's because of the reasons Nic outlined in his review. The Layla is absolutely not for individuals who prefer detail- or sparkle-prioritised signatures. It can definitely spit out tons of detail, but it doesn't push them in your face anywhere near as much as the U18t. The U18t is great, but I've always felt that its gobs of energy hurt imaging and resolution at the end of the day. The U18t always sounds like it's trying to excite and although that's awesome to hear for the first hour or so, it starts to depreciate the longer you go. The Layla is outstandingly transparent to my ears, with the ability to both clinically separate a mix and give instruments the body and weight they deserve - a near-impossible feat in my experience. But of course, different strokes for different folks.

The u18t is tuned to more or less a flat FR but the stock cable and tips could use some improvements. I had a DHC copper cable for the U18t which I think tames the highs somewhat, and I also used copper with the Layla's. 64 Audio's IEMs seem to take to cable rolling particularly well, and for me my opinion of the u18t changed substantially between demo'ing with the stock cable, and using it with good aftermarket wires.

JH seems to be going down the piezoelectric direction in a big way with the JH Janus, probably a good move since piezoelectics have a clear edge in treble performance on IEMs. That said the Lola had some pretty significant coherence issues between the DOME drivers and the treble range, which lead me to sell mine. Hopefully they can improve on this on the Janus.

 

[Zhanming057]

They are beautiful and the JVC HA-FX850 always had a special place in my heart. If I could find a way to get them in the states, even on their next batch in February, I would buy some.

Do you know if any JVC dealers have agreed to sell them in the US?

I know the official JVC dealer in China and demand for these is crazy, the 1st batch sold out on preorders. Not even the in-store demo units are left, people were paying a premium over MSRP for those. And I know that people are claiming spots for the new batch.

If you're committed to buying, you might want to put your name down with Jaben HK as soon as possible.

 

[subguy812]

Do you know if any JVC dealers have agreed to sell them in the US?

I know the official JVC dealer in China and demand for these is crazy, the 1st batch sold out on preorders. Not even the in-store demo units are left, people were paying a premium over MSRP for those. And I know that people are claiming spots for the new batch.

If you're committed to buying, you might want to put your name down with Jaben HK as soon as possible.

I have no idea if anyone has committed in the US, I doubt it. It is one of the few I have the desire to spend $$ on, but I dont even see a waiting list on Jaben HK.

 

[davidcotton]

Actually that’s exactly what I am doing... 3 hours with the IT01S... pretty puzzled at what iBasso has pulled off. In fact it makes me happy for this hobby that such an affordable IEM is so good and more importantly with such a mature and refined tuning. Still trying to wrap my head around it, almost kind of disturbing...

Or perhaps Ibasso is simply a bit more realistic on what they think they can charge for the iems?

 

[Zhanming057]

I have no idea if anyone has committed in the US, I doubt it. It is one of the few I have the desire to spend $$ on, but I dont even see a waiting list on Jaben HK.

You'll have to get in touch with Derek Huang or one of his clerks. He's pretty responsive about this stuff. I don't know what the situation is like in HK since I only go to him for Fitear - but I'd assume his stock is also dry at the moment.

It seems that dealers aren't even listing the FW10000 on their websites because they can't get them fast enough. From what I've heard impressions are very positive. TBH I have not heard a pure DD IEM that I like, with the singular exception of the MG6pro, but JVC must be doing something very right to get so much business.

 

[davidmolliere]

Or perhaps Ibasso is simply a bit more realistic on what they think they can charge for the iems?

Yeah but the disturbing part is the reverse, how much other charge for similar performance

 

[Deezel177]

The u18t is tuned to more or less a flat FR but the stock cable and tips could use some improvements. I had a DHC copper cable for the U18t which I think tames the highs somewhat, and I also used copper with the Layla's. 64 Audio's IEMs seem to take to cable rolling particularly well, and for me my opinion of the u18t changed substantially between demo'ing with the stock cable, and using it with good aftermarket wires.

JH seems to be going down the piezoelectric direction in a big way with the JH Janus, probably a good move since piezoelectics have a clear edge in treble performance on IEMs. That said the Lola had some pretty significant coherence issues between the DOME drivers and the treble range, which lead me to sell mine. Hopefully they can improve on this on the Janus.

I personally disagree quite highly. The U18t is tuned to emphasise clarity first, musicality second and staging third; reference is about fourth or fifth down the line. But of course, we may come from different points of view. With my engineer hat on, I can't at all work with the U18t's penchant for making everything sound good. I don't think I've heard a track from the U18t that doesn't sound clean, clear and fun - for better or for worse. The Layla tells me what a track is and isn't with great reliability. Any small change I make in EQ, or reverb, or imaging, etc. is immediately audible and what it does to the feel of the track is palpable as well. With the U18t a different EQ will sound kinda different, but generally good. A touch more or less reverb will sound kinda different, but generally good. Don't get me wrong, it's an outstanding IEM to listen to, but a chore to work with behind the desk.

Note: I've heard the U18t with cables ranging from S$300 to S$3000. It can't change what it already is.

 

[KuroKitsu]

I personally disagree quite highly. The U18t is tuned to emphasise clarity first, musicality second and staging third; reference is about fourth or fifth down the line. But of course, we may come from different points of view. With my engineer hat on, I can't at all work with the U18t's penchant for making everything sound good. I don't think I've heard a track from the U18t that doesn't sound clean, clear and fun - for better or for worse. The Layla tells me what a track is and isn't with great reliability. Any small change I make in EQ, or reverb, or imaging, etc. is immediately audible and what it does to the feel of the track is palpable as well. With the U18t a different EQ will sound kinda different, but generally good. A touch more or less reverb will sound kinda different, but generally good. Don't get me wrong, it's an outstanding IEM to listen to, but a chore to work with behind the desk.

Note: I've heard the U18t with cables ranging from S$300 to S$3000. It can't change what it already is.

I suspect they might be mixing up actual neutral reference with neutral reference in relation to other tunings.

The simplifed frequency graph thingy that 64 Audio would point to a reference tuning, which I would add a caveat of being relative to their house sound.

I might be an odd one out since I actually want reference when I say neutral as opposed to what most people seem to want clarity and fun when they describe neutral.

Clarity and fun is great for short term listening, but gets incredibly fatiguing for me past the hour mark. Where as with reference, I can listen for hours at a time be it critical listening, engineering or during work.

 

[bobeau]

Do you know if any JVC dealers have agreed to sell them in the US?

I know the official JVC dealer in China and demand for these is crazy, the 1st batch sold out on preorders.

Not likely, JVC woody earphones, like ATH woody headphones, have been a thing of affection on head-fi for a long time but none have sold in the US market.

I believe it's because of how these brands are viewed in the US - JVC is a lower end electronics brand, Audio Technica is primarily in the pro audio space.

 

[Rollk2]

Hi guys! After the excellent subguy812 Grace's review I want to share mine with you Click on the link!

If you want to read it in French I published it earlier on Tellement Nomade.

 

[Deezel177]

I suspect they might be mixing up actual neutral reference with neutral reference in relation to other tunings.

The simplifed frequency graph thingy that 64 Audio would point to a reference tuning, which I would add a caveat of being relative to their house sound.

I might be an odd one out since I actually want reference when I say neutral as opposed to what most people seem to want clarity and fun when they describe neutral.

Clarity and fun is great for short term listening, but gets incredibly fatiguing for me past the hour mark. Where as with reference, I can listen for hours at a time be it critical listening, engineering or during work.

My thoughts on this ongoing issue are rather complex. Believe me, I’ve tried so many times to type it all out into one, huge manifesto - all to futile attempts. At the end of the day, I believe there’s a stigma nowadays that’s misrepresented reference signatures as clean, treble-emphasised and detailed. While technical performance is undoubtedly a hallmark aspect in producing a professionally-capable IEM - and achieving a colourless tone shouldn’t be an excuse for middling technical performance either - I can hardly ever call this definition of reference... well, reference. Reference to me is as transparent to the source material as possible. While that may mean as much detail as possible to some, detail isn’t the only parameter you’re considering in professional work. An IEM that’s transparent in terms of detail cannot be called reference-grade if its detail hinders tonal transparency.

With that said, my definition of reference - as I’ve iterated sometime ago - is full transparency, i.e. each track played through a transparent IEM should sound different (tonal trans.), and those differences are discerned as effortlessly as possible (technical trans.). If I listen to two tracks and the general impressions I get range no further than good and detailed, than that IEM’s of little value to me as a tool. Of course, the opposite is true if I look at it from an enjoyment perspective (to some degree), but that’s why there’s so much discourse in this regard in the first place. ‘Hope this makes sense - I’m writing this at 8 AM; three hours after I woke up.

 

[KuroKitsu]

My thoughts on this ongoing issue are rather complex. Believe me, I’ve tried so many times to type it all out into one, huge manifesto - all to futile attempts. At the end of the day, I believe there’s a stigma nowadays that’s misrepresented reference signatures as clean, treble-emphasised and detailed. While technical performance is undoubtedly a hallmark aspect in producing a professionally-capable IEM - and achieving a colourless tone shouldn’t be an excuse for middling technical performance either - I can hardly ever call this definition of reference... well, reference. Reference to me is as transparent to the source material as possible. While that may mean as much detail as possible to some, detail isn’t the only parameter you’re considering in professional work. An IEM that’s transparent in terms of detail cannot be called reference-grade if its detail hinders tonal transparency.

With that said, my definition of reference - as I’ve iterated sometime ago - is full transparency, i.e. each track played through a transparent IEM should sound different (tonal trans.), and those differences are discerned as effortlessly as possible (technical trans.). If I listen to two tracks and the general impressions I get range no further than good and detailed, than that IEM’s of little value to me as a tool. Of course, the opposite is true if I look at it from an enjoyment perspective (to some degree), but that’s why there’s so much discourse in this regard in the first place. ‘Hope this makes sense - I’m writing this at 8 AM; three hours after I woke up.

I think this succinctly captures it in terms of what I feel as well regarding what constitutes a reference signature. Tonal Transparency is the term that I was looking for!

Don't feel too bad, my half-baked response is the product of 2 hours of rewriting my response multiple times, on mobile no less.

 

[Carlsan]

Reference can be rather tricky. Having worked in a mid-tier nightclub for over ten years, I saw a ton of bands.
I worked as the Dj, and was right behind the sound-man about three quarters away from the stage in a large hall that held about 900 people or more if they crowded in.
The sound-man, provided by the band if the group was more popular, would mix the sound as to what he/she would think the band wanted the audience to hear. The best place in the house to hear the sound was where I stood. Yet the sound varied from band to band and night to night. It varied per the sound-man's ears.
So what exactly is reference, is it the way the band would want you to hear it? Or is it a warped version that the sound-man mixed behind the mixing board. Did the band really want the bass that loud? Was the guitar mixed to loudly because the sound-man was really a metal head at heart?
Earphones are just another nightclub music setting, sitting right inside your ears.
Anyway, my point is that reference is Fools Gold and a red herring.
One person's reference will be the next person's unbalanced sound.