[Zhanming057]

Is it just me or are these electrostatic driver iems just not very exciting?

I know that changing the implementation of a driver will change it's sound but reading that they are all made by Sonion is kind of a turn off for me, even if it's just a psychological one. Also, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the dome mids and dual ba lows on the Janis are gonna be the same drivers from the Lola

I think so re: Lola mids and lows. They were using bits taken from Lola diagrams during the event and if they did change out the bass drivers, they didn't mention it at all.

I mean, almost all BA drivers are either made by Knowles or Chinese copies of Knowles, with a few companies building proprietary drivers, and companies still manage to build entirely different products from those drivers.

My two experiences with PE tweeter IEMs were somewhat mixed. The EST version that I demoed had glaring coherence problems between the treble and mids, but treble quality was excellent. My takeaway from comparing the Monet to the EST was that Fitear had no issues with creating spectacular treble from BA's, and the EST's gain in treble quality doesn't offset the tuning difficulties. That said, having multiple PE drivers plus DD mids might afford JH tuning possibilities that aren't available on the simpler EST design.

 

[Deezel177]

Is it just me or are these electrostatic driver iems just not very exciting?

I know that changing the implementation of a driver will change it's sound but reading that they are all made by Sonion is kind of a turn off for me, even if it's just a psychological one. Also, I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the dome mids and dual ba lows on the Janis are gonna be the same drivers from the Lola

Based on the IEMs I’ve tried so far, they can range wildly from one signature to another. It’s worth noting that the ES drivers aren’t responsible for whole sets of instrument - it’s responsible for literally fragments. The quad high drivers in the Angie are the same ones as in the Layla if my memory serves me right. Believe me, drivers only determine about 10-15% of an IEM’s final sound.

@Deezel177
Interesting insight into the complexities of mixing in a large venue. My church is really small so the only instrument we got is a baby grand not hooked up to the sound system and the most complex is getting the vocals sorted between the various speakers. Kinda glad since I also have to manage the powerpoint. I do love sitting in different locations at large churches to see how they handle these kinda things, maybe I'll drop by to see you if Im ever in the neck of the woods.

As usual another succinctly worded post before I even put thoughts to keyboard.

Always welcome, my friend!

Yes, points well made. You helped focus my ramblings.
Sitting here with a fever, fighting off the flue, and God knows what will come out of my thought stream.
Cheers.

Cheers to you too. I hope no offense or general negativity was taken from my reply. A respectful, informative discussion is always the goal at the end of the day.

I've been looking at the JH stuff lately, anything worth trying out? I've gotten into cable rolling now and the price + 4 pin connector has me going eh...

The Layla is my clear favourite, but the JH13v2 is quite underrated for the price in my opinion. It just has a somewhat recessed upper-midrange. Other than that, I’d consider it an outstanding all-rounded.

I think so re: Lola mids and lows. They were using bits taken from Lola diagrams during the event and if they did change out the bass drivers, they didn't mention it at all.

I mean, almost all BA drivers are either made by Knowles or Chinese copies of Knowles, with a few companies building proprietary drivers and companies manage to build entirely different products from those drivers.

My two experiences with PE tweeter IEMs were somewhat mixed. The EST version that I demoed had glaring coherence problems between the treble and mids, but treble quality was excellent. My takeaway from comparing the Monet to the EST was that Fitear had no issues with creating spectacular treble from BA's, and the EST's gain in treble quality doesn't offset the tuning difficulties. That said, having multiple PE drivers plus DD mids might afford JH tuning possibilities that aren't available on the simpler EST design.

Indeed, the Janis will be the world’s first quad-ES IEM. JH as far as I’m concerned has yet to create an unspecial IEM, so I’m hoping for big things from the Janis.

 

[491326]

The quad high drivers in the Angie are the same ones as in the Layla if my memory serves me right. Believe me, drivers only determine about 10-15% of an IEM’s final sound.

That's actually good to hear.

Probably a weird question, mostly cause I have so little knowledge. I think a while ago, I heard somewhere that treble is where most textural detail lies. Is this true?
It makes me wonder what would "just mids and bass" sound like? would it just sound like a vague muffled blob of sound? Is that even how sound works?

Hmmm actually, I'm gonna make this a dump for a number of things I've been confused about.
Bass, Mids, and Treble. What part of the music is each? Can lower pitch to higher pitch be divided into these sections?

oof, its like when i read reviews i dont actually understand any of it lol

edit: okay, I came up with a better description of my troubles
For me, theres still a split between describing sound in a technical sense and hearing it. When I listen on foobar, I keep the spectrum analyzer running. I can look at the individual pitches that the analyzer names; I can visually identify the peaks and dips. But, I can't link the sounds I'm hearing with any of the visual representations, probably except bass.

 

[491326]

I'll actually have to find a pair I can demo before I pass judgment. Maybe I'll like them unlike DDs

lol, once again, here I am blindly judging things I've never heard

 

[davidcotton]

lol, and here I am, blind buying my way through hifi

Sadly unless you live in Japan/Asia that's pretty much the only way to do things. Certainly in the uk aside from one or two notables (hifiheadphones down south, and I think Advancedmp3players up in Scotland) we are lucky if the shops even have a section for headphones, never mind ones set up to demo properly. Does my head in when the recommendation is "go try it for yourself". Well yes I would love to but sadly impossible (or at least very difficult(

 

[491326]

Sadly unless you live in Japan/Asia that's pretty much the only way to do things. Certainly in the uk aside from one or two notables (hifiheadphones down south, and I think Advancedmp3players up in Scotland) we are lucky if the shops even have a section for headphones, never mind ones set up to demo properly. Does my head in when the recommendation is "go try it for yourself". Well yes I would love to but sadly impossible (or at least very difficult(

I live in asia

I'm trying to audition more now that I'm here, but my country doesn't get things early and we still have to wait sometimes. Shops don't always carry everything either and that kind of gets annoying at times.

 

[davidmolliere]

Sadly unless you live in Japan/Asia that's pretty much the only way to do things. Certainly in the uk aside from one or two notables (hifiheadphones down south, and I think Advancedmp3players up in Scotland) we are lucky if the shops even have a section for headphones, never mind ones set up to demo properly. Does my head in when the recommendation is "go try it for yourself". Well yes I would love to but sadly impossible (or at least very difficult(

We were discussing this at a recent Paris meetups, it’s strange as well that we can’t audition much gear here, full size headphones is a bit better than IEMs in this respect... some of us even joked we should start a business

Many brands have no distributors as well so you have to order online direct from the manufacturer most of the time. I am not counting the times I ordered blind purely based on reviews and luckily most of the times with multiples good reviews and good knowledge of what the reviewer likes I have not been disappointed too often.

Now that I am participating in meetups regularly I get to audition much more stuff and it’s so great to hear first hand the SQ and quality of other products.

 

[Deezel177]

That's actually good to hear.

Probably a weird question, mostly cause I have so little knowledge. I think a while ago, I heard somewhere that treble is where most textural detail lies. Is this true?
It makes me wonder what would "just mids and bass" sound like? would it just sound like a vague muffled blob of sound? Is that even how sound works?

Hmmm actually, I'm gonna make this a dump for a number of things I've been confused about.
Bass, Mids, and Treble. What part of the music is each? Can lower pitch to higher pitch be divided into these sections?

oof, its like when i read reviews i dont actually understand any of it lol

edit: okay, I came up with a better description of my troubles
For me, theres still a split between describing sound in a technical sense and hearing it. When I listen on foobar, I keep the spectrum analyzer running. I can look at the individual pitches that the analyzer names; I can visually identify the peaks and dips. But, I can't link the sounds I'm hearing with any of the visual representations, probably except bass.

As I’ve said multiple times in the past, the quickest way to learn what frequency range does what is by experimenting on an EQ. If Foobar happens to have an EQ plug-in, I’d highly suggest you give it a try with your favourite tracks. Start by killing a frequency ranges with a large band for a more immediate, dramatic effect. Then, once you’ve got those down, you can narrow it down with smaller bands. Using a spectrum analyzer - unless your songs are played one instrument at a time - is near useless for two reasons. Dozens of instruments overlap on the frequency response chart, so you can’t isolate certain frequencies to certain sounds. Secondly, the wave you’re seeing is derived from the audio track; not taking your IEMs into account. So, the FR of your IEM is an outlying factor not visible on your analyzer.

 

[eldss]

As I’ve said multiple times in the past, the quickest way to learn what frequency range does what is by experimenting on an EQ. If Foobar happens to have an EQ plug-in, I’d highly suggest you give it a try with your favourite tracks. Start by killing a frequency ranges with a large band for a more immediate, dramatic effect. Then, once you’ve got those down, you can narrow it down with smaller bands. Using a spectrum analyzer - unless your songs are played one instrument at a time - is near useless for two reasons. Dozens of instruments overlap on the frequency response chart, so you can’t isolate certain frequencies to certain sounds. Secondly, the wave you’re seeing is derived from the audio track; not taking your IEMs into account. So, the FR of your IEM is an outlying factor not visible on your analyzer.

Another tool is to Download the Quiztones app. It teaches you to identify frequencies and you can even use your own music to learn to identify which frequencies are being boosted/cut.

 

[Raketen]

. If Foobar happens to have an EQ plug-in, I’d highly suggest you give it a try with your favourite tracks

Foobar has a built in EQ that is merely functional- however you can also get a VST plugin (VST Adapter, George Yohng's VST Wrapper, etc...) that lets you load whatever effect you'd want (there are probably some compatability limitations but I haven't really experimented beyond whatever guide I was using ages ago, EasyQ is an OK free one).

 

[KuroKitsu]

I live in asia

I'm trying to audition more now that I'm here, but my country doesn't get things early and we still have to wait sometimes. Shops don't always carry everything either and that kind of gets annoying at times.

Lol that sucks, you happen to live in the part of Asia where its not audiphile heaven. Still better than Canada. If I buy anything that's not Empire and a bunch of other brands, Im buying blind.

I don't have much advice about trying to describe SQ since I completely lack the terminology to describe what I hear. Ive had my foot in hifi for years thanks to a free pair of very close to reference AT over the years I recieved getting a Sansa in Hong Kong close to 12 years ago. That in addition to just love for music and having an ear for things helped a lot. Even now a lot of things I do are described as "I can't describe this, but I know it feels and sounds right". Everytime @Deezel177 posts, Im picking up so much terminology and learning how to describe, he is a god send.

 

[fzman]

Reference can be rather tricky. Having worked in a mid-tier nightclub for over ten years, I saw a ton of bands.
I worked as the Dj, and was right behind the sound-man about three quarters away from the stage in a large hall that held about 900 people or more if they crowded in.
The sound-man, provided by the band if the group was more popular, would mix the sound as to what he/she would think the band wanted the audience to hear. The best place in the house to hear the sound was where I stood. Yet the sound varied from band to band and night to night. It varied per the sound-man's ears.
So what exactly is reference, is it the way the band would want you to hear it? Or is it a warped version that the sound-man mixed behind the mixing board. Did the band really want the bass that loud? Was the guitar mixed to loudly because the sound-man was really a metal head at heart?
Earphones are just another nightclub music setting, sitting right inside your ears.
Anyway, my point is that reference is Fools Gold and a red herring.
One person's reference will be the next person's unbalanced sound.

This is where we make the distinction between the creation of art (music) and the recreation/reproduction of it. Creation is an aesthetic consideration, and has a lot to do with the intent of creator of the art/music. Reproduction has both objective and subjective considerations. 'Reference', to me, at least, means accurate to the source. This is not what most audiophiles or music lovers want (perhaps myself included). Consider here the difference between documentary and fiction. None of this is a value judgment regarding better or worse-just a terminological issue.

Neither does this speak to how one determines the sonic attributes of a piece of gear or system. More importantly, unless you are evaluating gear with live, recordings of acoustic instruments, it's almost impossible to know how the recording actually 'sounds', which makes it a useless metric for definitive statments of accuracy, or lack thereof.. This book is exactly 10" long-measure with a ruler of unknown accuracy....

Lastly, neither of the above have anything to do with how YOU should prefer your gear to sound- that's all you dudes!

 

[491326]

Even now a lot of things I do are described as "I can't describe this, but I know it feels and sounds right". Everytime @Deezel177 posts, Im picking up so much terminology and learning how to describe, he is a god send.

omg I feel the same way hahaha, I try to pick up from nic too but I just get really confused all the time

 

[KuroKitsu]

omg I feel the same way hahaha, I try to pick up from nic too but I just get really confused all the time

I know right? These guys launch in to discussions about mid-bass, low mids and all that and it just flys over my head most of the time.

 

[buonassi]

you really want your mind blown? Go hand out in the 'sound science' forum for a few weeks.