flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Mar 7, 2021 at 6:21 AM Post #28,681 of 39,419
That is a very interesting perspective indeed. I guess I never thought about it from a mixing or monitoring perspective, purely from an audiophile "as resolving as possible" perspective. Oftentimes as 'audiophiles' we mark things down for not being the last word in resolution, dynamics, etc. but don't put as much weight on tonality. I myself favour tonality first, technicalities second, and also much prefer a warmer sound over anything neutral or exclusively bright.

I'm going to park this thought here until I've tried the bird myself to hear where it fits on the spectrum of the two IEMs I've picked for my own listening. The OP (to whom I replied) made that comment about being unforgiving because it was so clear and resolving, so I'm going to take that into account in my analysis.
OP was me :ksc75smile: - I actually really like this discussion as it puts perspective on some interesting things: 1) definitions - we say resolution - but what do we mean with that and do we use it the right way ? And do we understand the same thing when we say resolution or dynamics - I will have to reflect over that ... we could easily been already in a babylonian world - where we throw terms into a discussion and everybody has a different interpretation of what this means to himself...
Reflections... and thinking...
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 7:27 AM Post #28,682 of 39,419
The one thing all the recent Trailli talk has done is a) make an $1800 'flagship' seem ridiculously cheap (talk about warping reality), and b) make everyone who can relate to (a) wonder if this is even going to compete in the same ball park as all the other name brand flagships. I for one really hope it does.
Considering what they explained in the video and the amount of tech they’ve crammed in there, the Jolene feels a lot more like flagship tier than mid-fi. Possibly the fact that it isn’t marketed as a reference IEM is what made them choose to keep the Layla as their flagship

I’m very optimistic personally, I hope JH respond tomorrow so I can have my Jolene the week after :)
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 8:52 AM Post #28,683 of 39,419
Mar 7, 2021 at 9:10 AM Post #28,684 of 39,419
Whoa that design is insane! Curious as to which part got spun-off :relaxed:
Haven’t had the chance to discuss it with them yet, just sent a preliminary email. I’d like to give them a pretty high degree of creative freedom with some most general color preference, their designs are pretty unmatched
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 9:12 AM Post #28,685 of 39,419
Mar 7, 2021 at 11:12 AM Post #28,686 of 39,419
As far as the design goes, I'm sure you can just talk to the JH guys about what you want, and they'll be able to make it happen. But, I do get what you're saying from the perspective of, "Will it still count as a free design if I ask for this to be changed? Or, that to be changed?" That's probably a question I'd suggest you e-mail them for.

And, for the DDs, I don't think that's exactly how they work. The push-pull, dual-DD config you're talking about is probably the one Ocharaku popularised, where one DD almost acts opposite to the other to absorb its excess vibrations. JH's DOME technology, as I understand it, has both drivers pump the same signal to a tube that sits perpendicularly between them. As a result, you'll effectively have the cumulative surface area of both drivers, and the distance between the drivers naturally creates a high-cut filter, which then allows the BA tweeters to come in with no overlap. Jerry himself talks about that idea briefly here:




That begs the question, though, because it depends on what you mean by transparent or resolving. When people talk about finding artefacts in music or hearing tinny, thinned-out EQ choices, I find that usually correlates to a tonality that pushes those qualities at the same time; a raised treble and a relaxed lower-midrange, for example. You'd hear more details in a more clinically-separated manner that way. But, again, they'll also exacerbate those artefacts, those tinny EQ choices, etc. Their tuning inherently pushes them further to the forefront. Whereas, transparency to me means the IEM gets out of the way and lets the music speak for itself. When you look at those IEMs that way - ones that push "flaws" more than they normally would or should - are they then truly transparent?

If I use camera lenses as an analogy, a 100mm macro lens will blow details up and make dust and fingerprints appear much larger than they normally would. Does that then make them more transparent than, say, a 50mm lens that's more like the human eye? In the realm of studio monitors, you also have the legendary Yamaha NS-10: A thin, papery-sounding speaker responsible for the saying, "If it sounds good on NS-10's, it'll sound good on anything." But, again, that goes back to tonality, rather than technical performance or resolution.

I've personally heard IEMs that are transparent and resolving (i.e. they change with music and resolve tons of details with ease) that still do what one may consider poorly-recorded tracks a certain amount of justice. <snip>

This. n.b. the 'you' here is not Deezil, just the generic 'you'. the "i" is, on the other hand, me specififcally)
I feel like many of the terms that Head-Fi-ers use to describe the sound are really names of colorations, and don't mean what I interepet them to mean, from context, a la the famous line from 'Princess Bride' "I don;t think that word means what you think it means!"

Since no component (iem) is perfect, it either adds or subtracts from the signal it is fed (or both). Gross changes in tonal balance can make things seem 'detailed' or 'warm' or 'organic' -- thosen terms, at least to me, signal an alteration of the music being performed by the iem under review..... When we are talking about a recording of acoustic instruments, i.e., a person playing a sax in front of a microphone, then we have a frame of reference.. the actual soujd of the sax. The mic and recording gear can and do alter that sound, but if you were in the room when that sax performance was being recorded, you can compare the recording to the sound of the sax itself. If you have ade many similar reordings in the same room, with the same mic and gear, then you have a range of data, from which to discern how 'close' to the actual sound the recording(s) is getting.

With electronic instruments (what I've decidede to call 'direct to voltage'), not so much. There is no sound, per se, jjust an intention on the part of the musician to make a recording that sonds a specific way. There's nothing wrong with that, just saying that you can only really say whether you lkike the way an iem makes them sound, not whether it is right or wrong--unless you are the artist, and it hits your target. When an audiophile or reviewer gets hold of these recordings and uses them to judge, evaluate, and describe the sound of gear, then things get interesting. If you are picking out stuff you like, then, awesome! Seek your bliss. I'm not gonna tell you not to put salt or pepper on all your food - make it taste the way you want it to.

If you are judging stuff on behalf of others, then there is some need to make sure you are using the words to mean what others think they do, and that you have a proper basis for being able to make these descriptive/reviewing claims. I agree that detail can be 'faked', or mistaken for salience. Tipped up tonal balance, or depressed low end can make other things stick out.... closing the car windows makes the radio sound louder, right? Perhaps it's just me being obtuse or stubborn, but when I hear things like intimate, or wide sooundstage, I wonder whether they mean that every recording sounds that way--if so, then the iem is acting as an editor--no thanks! That said, there's also a tendency for people to think that neutral, or resolving are bad things - I say don;t blame the messenger. I also agree that if something is too accurate to allow you to enjoy your music, then don;t buy it. Don't blame meteorologist when it rains (unless they promised you it wold not!).

In other words, I think I am agreeing with Deezel, and iirc, he is a recording engineer, so has real data to work from.

Onward!
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 11:16 AM Post #28,687 of 39,419
I guess this thread is just FOTW. Now all I see are posts about Jolene... I’m just gonna go enjoy my overpriced birds and exit the IEM game. Next stop abyss 1266 :)
That is a smart move. Everyone has different tastes and physical make up of their ears as well. Enjoy the birds and let them talk about JH. I am not high on JH after having their Layla, so let’s see if they actually made anything they sounds better vs looking cool.

Please let me know what you think about the Abyss TC. Sometimes that thread gets weird so I would be interested in your thoughts. Tks.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 11:32 AM Post #28,688 of 39,419
OP was me :ksc75smile: - I actually really like this discussion as it puts perspective on some interesting things: 1) definitions - we say resolution - but what do we mean with that and do we use it the right way ? And do we understand the same thing when we say resolution or dynamics - I will have to reflect over that ... we could easily been already in a babylonian world - where we throw terms into a discussion and everybody has a different interpretation of what this means to himself...
Reflections... and thinking...

I agree! I think it is important to understand whether certain terms are objectve or subjective, or how uch wiggle-room correct usage allows. For example, 'over-cooked' vs. 'medium well'. I think as gear gets better and better, and more and more expensive, there's more at stake. And people are getting a deeper sense of what's actually possible in hi-fi or head-fi.

So, e.g., when I hear someone say that iem XXX has 'a big soundstage', I wonder if they mean that every recording sounds like it has a big soundstage when played thru XXX? Or does it mean that it tells you the soundstage size the specifric recording has, and that it does not truncate or shrink those that reall do have big soundstages?

This stuff's really complicated in one sense, and super-simple in another.... Just keep asking yourself:

What am I really hearing here?

What is it that I really want to hear?

Whoy should'nt I buy more stuff? (lol)
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 11:38 AM Post #28,689 of 39,419
This. n.b. the 'you' here is not Deezil, just the generic 'you'. the "i" is, on the other hand, me specififcally)
I feel like many of the terms that Head-Fi-ers use to describe the sound are really names of colorations, and don't mean what I interepet them to mean, from context, a la the famous line from 'Princess Bride' "I don;t think that word means what you think it means!"

Since no component (iem) is perfect, it either adds or subtracts from the signal it is fed (or both). Gross changes in tonal balance can make things seem 'detailed' or 'warm' or 'organic' -- thosen terms, at least to me, signal an alteration of the music being performed by the iem under review..... When we are talking about a recording of acoustic instruments, i.e., a person playing a sax in front of a microphone, then we have a frame of reference.. the actual soujd of the sax. The mic and recording gear can and do alter that sound, but if you were in the room when that sax performance was being recorded, you can compare the recording to the sound of the sax itself. If you have ade many similar reordings in the same room, with the same mic and gear, then you have a range of data, from which to discern how 'close' to the actual sound the recording(s) is getting.

With electronic instruments (what I've decidede to call 'direct to voltage'), not so much. There is no sound, per se, jjust an intention on the part of the musician to make a recording that sonds a specific way. There's nothing wrong with that, just saying that you can only really say whether you lkike the way an iem makes them sound, not whether it is right or wrong--unless you are the artist, and it hits your target. When an audiophile or reviewer gets hold of these recordings and uses them to judge, evaluate, and describe the sound of gear, then things get interesting. If you are picking out stuff you like, then, awesome! Seek your bliss. I'm not gonna tell you not to put salt or pepper on all your food - make it taste the way you want it to.

If you are judging stuff on behalf of others, then there is some need to make sure you are using the words to mean what others think they do, and that you have a proper basis for being able to make these descriptive/reviewing claims. I agree that detail can be 'faked', or mistaken for salience. Tipped up tonal balance, or depressed low end can make other things stick out.... closing the car windows makes the radio sound louder, right? Perhaps it's just me being obtuse or stubborn, but when I hear things like intimate, or wide sooundstage, I wonder whether they mean that every recording sounds that way--if so, then the iem is acting as an editor--no thanks! That said, there's also a tendency for people to think that neutral, or resolving are bad things - I say don;t blame the messenger. I also agree that if something is too accurate to allow you to enjoy your music, then don;t buy it. Don't blame meteorologist when it rains (unless they promised you it wold not!).

In other words, I think I am agreeing with Deezel, and iirc, he is a recording engineer, so has real data to work from.

Onward!
Hear what you are saying, that said there is an art in the listening. What the artist intended vs what it makes someone feel both have value and may not be exactly the same thing, and that is okay I think. What I love about this gear is that I can tweak to get at what I want, bring out the voice, suppress the hiss from a old recoding, etc... I am a designer and a visual artist or today some call that a “maker” and it always opens my eyes wide when someone likes something I made, and than tells me why, and it has nothing to do with what I intended, or what I was feeling when I made it. Now I see what they see as well when I look again.
 
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Mar 7, 2021 at 11:40 AM Post #28,690 of 39,419
I thought you’ve done a review on Odin before?

Edit: Excellent write up (as always)! And I love the idea of having various vintage cameras as the props around Odin (there’s an M6 and Rolleiflex :relaxed:)
I did a First Look on the ODIN previously. This one's the full monty. :D Thanks for the praises! I got inspired when I saw my dad's film camera vault while practicing drums, and it kicked off pretty quickly from there. :wink:

Great review. Reading it may have also made me realise the Odin isn’t for me. Too many poorly recorded flacs in my library. I listen to lots of classical and jazz but there is also metal in there!
Thank you! I wouldn't necessarily say it's that unforgiving. But, spatially, it does reveal when a track's been compressed. Besides, the ODIN probably wouldn't be my first choice when it came to metal anyway. My picks for those genres would still either be the A18t or the M5. We'll see how the Jolene stacks up when I get my ears on it. :wink:

This. n.b. the 'you' here is not Deezil, just the generic 'you'. the "i" is, on the other hand, me specififcally)
I feel like many of the terms that Head-Fi-ers use to describe the sound are really names of colorations, and don't mean what I interepet them to mean, from context, a la the famous line from 'Princess Bride' "I don;t think that word means what you think it means!"

Since no component (iem) is perfect, it either adds or subtracts from the signal it is fed (or both). Gross changes in tonal balance can make things seem 'detailed' or 'warm' or 'organic' -- thosen terms, at least to me, signal an alteration of the music being performed by the iem under review..... When we are talking about a recording of acoustic instruments, i.e., a person playing a sax in front of a microphone, then we have a frame of reference.. the actual soujd of the sax. The mic and recording gear can and do alter that sound, but if you were in the room when that sax performance was being recorded, you can compare the recording to the sound of the sax itself. If you have ade many similar reordings in the same room, with the same mic and gear, then you have a range of data, from which to discern how 'close' to the actual sound the recording(s) is getting.

With electronic instruments (what I've decidede to call 'direct to voltage'), not so much. There is no sound, per se, jjust an intention on the part of the musician to make a recording that sonds a specific way. There's nothing wrong with that, just saying that you can only really say whether you lkike the way an iem makes them sound, not whether it is right or wrong--unless you are the artist, and it hits your target. When an audiophile or reviewer gets hold of these recordings and uses them to judge, evaluate, and describe the sound of gear, then things get interesting. If you are picking out stuff you like, then, awesome! Seek your bliss. I'm not gonna tell you not to put salt or pepper on all your food - make it taste the way you want it to.

If you are judging stuff on behalf of others, then there is some need to make sure you are using the words to mean what others think they do, and that you have a proper basis for being able to make these descriptive/reviewing claims. I agree that detail can be 'faked', or mistaken for salience. Tipped up tonal balance, or depressed low end can make other things stick out.... closing the car windows makes the radio sound louder, right? Perhaps it's just me being obtuse or stubborn, but when I hear things like intimate, or wide sooundstage, I wonder whether they mean that every recording sounds that way--if so, then the iem is acting as an editor--no thanks! That said, there's also a tendency for people to think that neutral, or resolving are bad things - I say don;t blame the messenger. I also agree that if something is too accurate to allow you to enjoy your music, then don;t buy it. Don't blame meteorologist when it rains (unless they promised you it wold not!).

In other words, I think I am agreeing with Deezel, and iirc, he is a recording engineer, so has real data to work from.

Onward!
Oh, for sure. I've made several posts in the past talking about how much "translation" music goes through from the instrument, to the room, to the mics, to the recording gear, to the post-processing, etc. Even the live music we hear is part-and-parcel with the PA system, room reflections, etc. It's impossible to determine what truly is life-like, but there are cues that one could approximate to it; cues like a balanced, meaty tonality, a dynamic, stable image, etc. I feel those cues give our brains just enough to bridge that gap between "I'm listening to an IEM" and "I'm listening to real, genuine music". The less balanced the tonality is, or the less realistic an IEM's imaging is, or the less resolved an image is, etc., then that leap our brains have to make becomes larger and more strenuous.

As far as the term reference or transparency goes, I've said in the past that my definitions of those terms correlate to how much flavour an IEM imparts towards a recording. If I play a jazz recording and a hip-hop recording back-to-back and I hear a similar presence in the bass, then the IEM surely isn't transparent down low, for example. The ODIN is an IEM that, as I said on my review, makes everything seem vast and larger-than-life. Even my intimate ballads sound grand and sweeping through it. That's why I said it's not an IEM I'd call neutral or reference by any means, but that's an intentional choice on EE's part. The way I've always determined an IEM (or even just a certain frequency range's) transparency is by running it through a bunch of different genres. If each genre or track sounds distinct, and I don't hear any tells or patterns from the IEM, then I could call it transparent or reference. It's the definition that I've found to be least confusing and most consistent.

EDIT: Similarly, when I wanna determine whether it's the track or the IEM that has great stereo separation, I just play the track through a bunch of IEMs, and I play the IEM through a bunch of different tracks. I find out which does what, and a clear answer usually arrives from there. It helps that I've used a lot of the same tracks when I review IEMs, so I pretty much know off-the-bat what's changed and why.
 
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Mar 7, 2021 at 11:59 AM Post #28,691 of 39,419
I got inspired when I saw my dad's film camera vault while practicing drums, and it kicked off pretty quickly from there. :wink:

This sounds like an award-winning story idea:

mystery
music
cool cameras
a lifetime of inspiration

...and a vault.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 12:18 PM Post #28,692 of 39,419
This sounds like an award-winning story idea:

mystery
music
cool cameras
a lifetime of inspiration

...and a vault.
Whiplash 2! Andrew Neiman becomes a bank robber to fund the therapy he's undergoing after months of studying under Terrence Fletcher. :D
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 12:49 PM Post #28,693 of 39,419
Mar 7, 2021 at 1:08 PM Post #28,694 of 39,419
🤣🤣🤣. 😭😭😭
🐅🐾
 

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Mar 7, 2021 at 1:14 PM Post #28,695 of 39,419
Oh no....what happened? Did it fall?

Something happened in shipping. The VE 8 is loosely contained in its metal case (by the way, I wonder if VE sources its metal cases from the same supplier as EE. My Odin case looks very similar other than the flat chamfered top half vs the VE 8‘s more rounded top. The internal protective lining appears to be identical). Since the VE 8 was loosely contained within, any major bumps in shipping may have been the cause.

Andrew is out of stock, so he tells me his next shipment is next week and he will ship me a new one.

I was so disappointed with the broken nozzle that until this morning, I didn’t even want to listen to it. But being prudent about this, I went ahead and put on a set of Azla Sedna tips (somewhat difficult to do on the broken nozzle), and wow, what a beautiful tone! I was considering upgrading to the Elysium, but there is as reported by many a warmish tone in the mids/upper mids that nothing in my current stable comes close to. I’m sticking with the VE 8. 😁
 

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