flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:16 AM Post #28,666 of 39,419
For those interested, Moon Audio and Audio 46 have Jolene universals available for pre-sale. The driver config is just too intriguing for me and my curiousity got the best of me.

I just reserved one :)
Intriguing development. Really wish we could see what they look like instead of both sites using what look like images of the customs.

Also am I the only one that finds it weird that a retailer has a product available for preorder before the manufacturer itself has launched it or at least given an indication of its existence?
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:23 AM Post #28,667 of 39,419
Intriguing development. Really wish we could see what they look like instead of both sites using what look like images of the customs.

Also am I the only one that finds it weird that a retailer has a product available for preorder before the manufacturer itself has launched it or at least given an indication of its existence?


I think JH only sales custom variants and let the unis to the dealers. It looks like it.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:45 AM Post #28,669 of 39,419
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:57 AM Post #28,670 of 39,419
it's the only iem i have been using last 4 years (you can't call a 6K iem best of best , if you still own another 8 iems and continue to buy iems every 3 months.... :wink: )
I have one that’s been with me for 4 years, but probably haven’t used it as many hours as you have with Zeus, I save the mighty one for special occasions, whereas for any other day, the lesser ones got their turn :wink:
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:59 AM Post #28,671 of 39,419
I guess this thread is just FOTW. Now all I see are posts about Jolene... I’m just gonna go enjoy my overpriced birds and exit the IEM game. Next stop abyss 1266 :)

Don’t get the TC so soon, you need to enjoy the birds first. Once you get the TC, there’s a chance the birds won’t fly that often :sunglasses:
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 2:59 AM Post #28,672 of 39,419
That begs the question, though, because it depends on what you mean by transparent or resolving. When people talk about finding artefacts in music or hearing tinny, thinned-out EQ choices, I find that usually correlates to a tonality that pushes those qualities at the same time; a raised treble and a relaxed lower-midrange, for example. You'd hear more details in a more clinically-separated manner that way. But, again, they'll also exacerbate those artefacts, those tinny EQ choices, etc. Their tuning inherently pushes them further to the forefront. Whereas, transparency to me means the IEM gets out of the way and lets the music speak for itself. When you look at those IEMs that way - ones that push "flaws" more than they normally would or should - are they then truly transparent?

If I use camera lenses as an analogy, a 100mm macro lens will blow details up and make dust and fingerprints appear much larger than they normally would. Does that then make them more transparent than, say, a 50mm lens that's more like the human eye? In the realm of studio monitors, you also have the legendary Yamaha NS-10: A thin, papery-sounding speaker responsible for the saying, "If it sounds good on NS-10's, it'll sound good on anything." But, again, that goes back to tonality, rather than technical performance or resolution.

I've personally heard IEMs that are transparent and resolving (i.e. they change with music and resolve tons of details with ease) that still do what one may consider poorly-recorded tracks a certain amount of justice. I'd cite the A18s and Layla as two examples. They simply present those tracks as another shade of grey. I think this is the healthy in-between that can exist between transparency and frankness; a more natural, humane form of transparency, if you will. As a recording and mixing engineer, those are the kinds on in-ears I personally gravitate to. But, again, it's all up to how you define those terms. 'Just my two cents.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that you could apply to this to dynamic and spatial transparency as well. IEMs that are tuned for clarity typically have brighter, more forwardly-positioned, harder-edged transients, and those make dynamics more difficult to distinguish. If the leading edges are always forwardly-placed and the warmer - some may may veil-inducing - harmonics are always further back, then it's more difficult to tell when they each ebb-and-flow, isn't it? These IEMs are also typically tuned for larger stages too. But, if everything is given an airy, vast stage, how can you tell if a track sounds congested, or if there'll be enough space between instruments on a warmer monitor, etc.? Again, it's just how I tend to view reference monitors, and it's why my definitions of reference or neutral tend to be warmer than most.
That is a very interesting perspective indeed. I guess I never thought about it from a mixing or monitoring perspective, purely from an audiophile "as resolving as possible" perspective. Oftentimes as 'audiophiles' we mark things down for not being the last word in resolution, dynamics, etc. but don't put as much weight on tonality. I myself favour tonality first, technicalities second, and also much prefer a warmer sound over anything neutral or exclusively bright.

I'm going to park this thought here until I've tried the bird myself to hear where it fits on the spectrum of the two IEMs I've picked for my own listening. The OP (to whom I replied) made that comment about being unforgiving because it was so clear and resolving, so I'm going to take that into account in my analysis.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 3:14 AM Post #28,673 of 39,419
That is a very interesting perspective indeed. I guess I never thought about it from a mixing or monitoring perspective, purely from an audiophile "as resolving as possible" perspective. Oftentimes as 'audiophiles' we mark things down for not being the last word in resolution, dynamics, etc. but don't put as much weight on tonality. I myself favour tonality first, technicalities second, and also much prefer a warmer sound over anything neutral or exclusively bright.

I'm going to park this thought here until I've tried the bird myself to hear where it fits on the spectrum of the two IEMs I've picked for my own listening. The OP (to whom I replied) made that comment about being unforgiving because it was so clear and resolving, so I'm going to take that into account in my analysis.
Yeah, I agree. My post wasn't so much disagreeing with you or the OP; just a different perspective to consider things from. There are also IEMs that - to some degree - are "unforgiving" despite having a laidback, not-clinical tonality. An example would be the ODIN when it comes to imaging and space. I describe it in further detail in the review I'll be posting very, very soon, but playing very compressed tracks on the ODIN yields a pretty interesting result: The track's soundscape looks almost like a scrunched-up ball in the middle of the ODIN's stage; their layers all smushed together, resulting in the ODIN's vast stage feeling almost-unused. Whereas, tracks with dynamic range fill the space easily with lots of width and air. That'd be an example of an IEM I truly would classify as unforgivably resolving (for lack of a better term), like we've discussed above; at least in a spatial capacity.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 5:34 AM Post #28,674 of 39,419
Taking a brief breather from all the Jolene talk, my review of Empire Ears' ODIN has finally dropped on THL! :) You can check it out on the Empire thread via the link here. As always, I really appreciate the read, and I hope you all enjoy. Cheers!

EE-ODIN-2_S.jpg
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 5:37 AM Post #28,676 of 39,419
Taking a brief breather from all the Jolene talk, my review of Empire Ears' ODIN has finally dropped on THL! :) You can check it out on the Empire thread via the link here. As always, I really appreciate the read, and I hope you all enjoy. Cheers!

I thought you’ve done a review on Odin before?

Edit: Excellent write up (as always)! And I love the idea of having various vintage cameras as the props around Odin (there’s an M6 and Rolleiflex :relaxed:)
 
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Mar 7, 2021 at 5:53 AM Post #28,677 of 39,419
Taking a brief breather from all the Jolene talk, my review of Empire Ears' ODIN has finally dropped on THL! :) You can check it out on the Empire thread via the link here. As always, I really appreciate the read, and I hope you all enjoy. Cheers!

Great review. Reading it may have also made me realise the Odin isn’t for me. Too many poorly recorded flacs in my library. I listen to lots of classical and jazz but there is also metal in there!
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 5:55 AM Post #28,678 of 39,419
Mar 7, 2021 at 5:57 AM Post #28,679 of 39,419
Oh yeah, I do agree with you overall.
I was merely answering @Rockwell75 post who was referring to differences between TOTL IEMs. Of course, if your only point of comparison in the IEM world is you AK T8ie, traillii would blow your mind, but so would gear like Odin, Elysium or about any current TOTL. (For the record I also own T8ie II and I demoed most TOTL ).
Now, I shelled out those $6000 for the Traillii, so I guess it speaks for itself about what I think of them! But I also think that if I already owned something like Erlky, Odin, Elysium or others, I would very likely not have felt the need to spent those 6 grands on Traillii and live very happily with what I have!
That’s just my feelings and YMMV. :)
True, true - coming from the 1K area i would never have thought to go for one of the 3x plus more expensive IEM's. I was closed to by a QDC or Elysium and then went for the most expensive one. I spent 5K as Musicteck was kind to have a promotion running at that time and i think that this the max one should ever ask for ANY IEM no matter how good they are. Did you write a comparison review of the Erlky, Odin, Elysium with Trailli ?
I would like to see a frequency test of each of them in an overlay - so that this "measurements" can be benchmarked against the personal impression (which is most likely to be more important). B.t.w. i kept my AK T8ie Mk II for outdoor listening... it has after all still a very good sound even though.
 
Mar 7, 2021 at 6:15 AM Post #28,680 of 39,419
As far as the design goes, I'm sure you can just talk to the JH guys about what you want, and they'll be able to make it happen. But, I do get what you're saying from the perspective of, "Will it still count as a free design if I ask for this to be changed? Or, that to be changed?" That's probably a question I'd suggest you e-mail them for.

And, for the DDs, I don't think that's exactly how they work. The push-pull, dual-DD config you're talking about is probably the one Ocharaku popularised, where one DD almost acts opposite to the other to absorb its excess vibrations. JH's DOME technology, as I understand it, has both drivers pump the same signal to a tube that sits perpendicularly between them. As a result, you'll effectively have the cumulative surface area of both drivers, and the distance between the drivers naturally creates a high-cut filter, which then allows the BA tweeters to come in with no overlap. Jerry himself talks about that idea briefly here:




That begs the question, though, because it depends on what you mean by transparent or resolving. When people talk about finding artefacts in music or hearing tinny, thinned-out EQ choices, I find that usually correlates to a tonality that pushes those qualities at the same time; a raised treble and a relaxed lower-midrange, for example. You'd hear more details in a more clinically-separated manner that way. But, again, they'll also exacerbate those artefacts, those tinny EQ choices, etc. Their tuning inherently pushes them further to the forefront. Whereas, transparency to me means the IEM gets out of the way and lets the music speak for itself. When you look at those IEMs that way - ones that push "flaws" more than they normally would or should - are they then truly transparent?

If I use camera lenses as an analogy, a 100mm macro lens will blow details up and make dust and fingerprints appear much larger than they normally would. Does that then make them more transparent than, say, a 50mm lens that's more like the human eye? In the realm of studio monitors, you also have the legendary Yamaha NS-10: A thin, papery-sounding speaker responsible for the saying, "If it sounds good on NS-10's, it'll sound good on anything." But, again, that goes back to tonality, rather than technical performance or resolution.

I've personally heard IEMs that are transparent and resolving (i.e. they change with music and resolve tons of details with ease) that still do what one may consider poorly-recorded tracks a certain amount of justice. I'd cite the A18s and Layla as two examples. They simply present those tracks as another shade of grey. I think this is the healthy in-between that can exist between transparency and frankness; a more natural, humane form of transparency, if you will. As a recording and mixing engineer, those are the kinds on in-ears I personally gravitate to. But, again, it's all up to how you define those terms. 'Just my two cents.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that you could apply to this to dynamic and spatial transparency as well. IEMs that are tuned for clarity typically have brighter, more forwardly-positioned, harder-edged transients, and those make dynamics more difficult to distinguish. If the leading edges are always forwardly-placed and the warmer - some may may veil-inducing - harmonics are always further back, then it's more difficult to tell when they each ebb-and-flow, isn't it? These IEMs are also typically tuned for larger stages too. But, if everything is given an airy, vast stage, how can you tell if a track sounds congested, or if there'll be enough space between instruments on a warmer monitor, etc.? Again, it's just how I tend to view reference monitors, and it's why my definitions of reference or neutral tend to be warmer than most.


Yeah, JH typically split their BAs into 4-driver arrays in parallel, which allows them to push for extension without effort or distortion. It's something Jerry talked about in that 2012 Google Talk I mentioned earlier.

Excellent comment - I will have to read it several times to really understand all of it. BUT one thing I can definitely concur - is that sound and how we appreciate Loudspeakers and/or IEM's are really pretty subjective too.
I once bought some brilliant high end German Loudspeakers in Hong Kong for a bargain. The company was in the top 10% of the best Loudspeaker reviews and the dealer got them to sell them in Hong Kong. Sadly he miscalculated and could never sell a pair, so i got them very cheap. The reason was, and she showed me - Gryphon and B&W are both English made Loudspeakers and British people are used to a certain sound profile (as he called it more forgiving) - they sound more "pleasant" and so they resonated well with the Hong Kong expats and audiences, while the German Loudspeaker sounded to analytical and much less forgiving (as you called it).
In other words, British people were/are used to a different sound profile and hence disliked the German Loudspeaker for that matter.
I come from a German speaking background and in those countries (D,A,CH) people like precision and clinical razor sharp sound profiles - and that became pretty clear to me that it is true. I liked the Germany Loudspeaker much over the the Gryphon and B&W for EXACTLY that reason.
I would absolutely assume that this is the same in the IEM world - and so some discussion back and forth about the sound perfection of an IEM is also influenced by from where and which cultural background we come and what we grew up with. This forum has people from ALL around the world and so it would be a perfect audience to identify the cultural aspect our differences in audio listening experiences. Any thoughts from this group outside of UK and Central Europe ?
 

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