flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Jun 22, 2020 at 1:51 PM Post #22,921 of 39,414
Aight well with all this Erl and Thummim talk... I’ve just ordered an Erl that should be here on Wednesday so I’ll be able to provide a proper A/B

Went for the silver edition though as I like that better than full black, a bit more bling :D

The Ara should also be arriving soon so plenty of new toys to play with!
You are our hero!! My wallet thanks you :D
 
Jun 22, 2020 at 2:48 PM Post #22,923 of 39,414
My journey through IEMs...
IMG_0312.JPG
 
Jun 22, 2020 at 2:48 PM Post #22,924 of 39,414
Well done @mvvRAZ !

Just dropping by to let you all know how much I enjoyed my time with the Craft Ears Six.
Really something special to my ears. A brilliant job for a fair price :thumbsup:

My review should come up by the end of the week.
 
Jun 23, 2020 at 1:15 AM Post #22,927 of 39,414
I used the Horus with it and it was not subtle. Tks.
How would you describe the difference you heard?

Would you say it sounded like a completely different sound signature or tuning...a completely different iem?

Again, I’m with you on cables making an impact, no doubt. And enjoyment can rise dramatically when you find a complementary cable...it can be one of those true audiophile epiphany moments if you can experience it.

At the end of the day, the A18t has a specific sound signature that didn’t change with the 1950 cable. Did it sound better than the stock cable? Yes! I was absolutely floored at how much better it sounded, but this surprise was due to hearing and appreciating the collection of subtle differences that manifested when the A18t was plugged into the 1950. However, I never forgot that it was 64a’s 18-driver model in my ears.

Honestly curious to hear your interpretation of what you hear with the Horus.
 
Jun 23, 2020 at 11:38 AM Post #22,928 of 39,414
Jun 23, 2020 at 11:54 AM Post #22,929 of 39,414
Jun 23, 2020 at 1:13 PM Post #22,930 of 39,414
Getting that taffy-vibe again. I can just imagine the first page of the manual for these... "DO NOT EAT!"
I was thinking Easter basket...but I do like them
 
Jun 24, 2020 at 12:23 AM Post #22,931 of 39,414
How would you describe the difference you heard?

Would you say it sounded like a completely different sound signature or tuning...a completely different iem?

Again, I’m with you on cables making an impact, no doubt. And enjoyment can rise dramatically when you find a complementary cable...it can be one of those true audiophile epiphany moments if you can experience it.

At the end of the day, the A18t has a specific sound signature that didn’t change with the 1950 cable. Did it sound better than the stock cable? Yes! I was absolutely floored at how much better it sounded, but this surprise was due to hearing and appreciating the collection of subtle differences that manifested when the A18t was plugged into the 1950. However, I never forgot that it was 64a’s 18-driver model in my ears.

Honestly curious to hear your interpretation of what you hear with the Horus.
For me it was dramatic. As I said the bass had more impact, sounded tighter and I felt the timbre improved. Crin has the VE-8 rated as one of the best IEM’s available. While it certainly was excellent, I felt like I did not get it. When I switched cables, I was like, okay, now I get it. This is still “fine tuning” as I think you are alluding to, but an amount that was immediately noticeable. Now, could it be I was getting more used to it? I have sent it back to improve the fit and the faceplate, so I cannot make a comparison at the moment. It fit, but was a little tight. When it comes back I will be able to listen to it again and see if I have the same reaction. I am listening to the Elysium more now, and I like it, but there are times I wonder if its timbre is too light. At other times it is flat out marvelous. Maybe I’m just nuts! We will see.
I also attached a 1950’s to the Elysium hoping for a bit more lower end impact. It did work a little and that is the cable I am using with it. However, I did not feel it made the treble less open or more open or anything like that. I felt the mids, treble and most importantly the timbre or sound of the Elysium remained the same. So not as dramatic a change for me with the Elysium. Tks.
 
Jun 24, 2020 at 9:37 AM Post #22,932 of 39,414
Let's talk Summit-Fi! In this discussion we've left concepts such as sanity and value-for-money behind, and are looking at some rather ****ing awesome money-no-object items - the best that the portable audio industry has managed to come up with

Disclaimer: I have paid almost full retail for both items, and I've acquired both the Thummim and the Erl at a rather comparable price tag. Neither company has provided any sort of incentive for a favourable review.

Since this is going to be a proper A/B comparison post between the Thummim by MMR and Erlkoenig by Vision Ears I'm actually going to go point by point outlining my experience with each and which I feel has the upper hand in that particular aspect. I do have to state that they're both insanely good products, and I can't clearly recommend one or the other one-sidedly, but I will also state my overall preference at the end of this post.

1. Packaging
This is one of the points where the Erl truly is unmatched, as it arrives in a huge wooden box, with plenty of accessories, stickers and whatnot. The Thummim offers a much more understated experience, with a very nice leather case, but not quite the level of the Erl

2. Stock cable
I've read that the LE Erl has a rather nice cable that it arrives with (my info is that it's produced by Hansound though that's not official). I purchased the original Erl however, since I liked the matte silver shells much better than the black ones, and I was able to get some discount on a mint open box unit (previously owned by @aaf evo, thanks for returning them buddy! :D)

Anyhow, I find that the Plato that is included with the Thummim is a much nicer cable with a more mid-centric tonality, whereas the regular Erl cable had a rather bright touch that I didn't enjoy especially. The build quality of the Plato is also significantly nicer Imo - a point for the Thummim.

3. Build quality and fit
I can't really say that one is better built than the other. The sockets are definitely better on the Thumimm, while the Erl has a more pleasant fit, though the weight does cause some discomfort on both IEMs. The pure silver shell is also premium AF, and I love it. I suppose you can say the Erl wins marginally here, and that both IEMs are miles ahead of the rest of the market, or at least as far as my experience goes

4. Sound

Disclaimer: I really did not like settings 1 and 2, and setting 3 touches on a treble sensitivity of mine, so all listening is being done on 4 and it looks like it will stay so. Setting 1 and 2 are pretty bass-heavy, but at the expense of technical performance Imo, so hard pass from me.

This is probably the toughest point to evaluate because of just how different the two signatures and presentations are. The Erl has a much lighter touch, with a flatter presentation across the spectrum.

Bass: The Thummim presents the lows as a typical well tuned DD would. Slow decay, massive subbass, excellent weight and texture. The Erl presents the lows as much more of a BA, with really good speed, control and a subbass/bass ratio closer to 1. In this specific point I think I prefer the Erl, as I'm not a huge basshead, and instead prefer flatter lows

Midrange: Probably the toughest one to compare. The Thummim does sport better texture here, as well as more weight and just general thickness. They're both absolutely excellent in that respect, and only really matched by the VE Elysium. Three titans, each one with a slightly different presentation throughout the midrange. I'd say the Elysium and Thummim sound quite a lot like how a DD would present the mids, while the Erl has one of the best BA-sounding midranges. I'd say the mids of the Erl might make for a slightly better all-rounder, though I'd still pick those of the Thummim over it personally

Treble: In my ever-so-humble opinion, the Thummim wins by a fair margin here. Better extension, more sparkle, better detail and control. The Erl does a great job with the treble, but is still somewhat short compared to MMR's flagship.

Soundstage: The staging on the Thummim is much bigger than that of anything else I've heard, Erl included. The Erl is somewhat better organised and you can tell exactly where everything is, while the Thummim wins with sheer size and awesomeness. This point definitely goes to the Thummim once again Imo

Detail retrieval: They're both wonderfully detailed, but the Erl is quite unmatched in this respect. Easy point to the Erl.

Instrumental separation: Marginally better on the Thummim imo, though very comparable. Can't really say which I like better, they're both insane in that respect

Overall presentation: This is where they differ most imo. The Thummim is all about how good your music could sound. It is a wonderfully exaggerated, over-the-top sounding IEM, which provides an experience that's quite simply incomparable to anything else on the market. The Erl takes a different approach - it takes a rather standard tonality and a rather standard soundstage and takes it to an absolute extreme in how well it performs it.

Personal preference: Thankfully I can afford to own both, but if I had to only pick one to keep, I'd still stick with the Thummim. While the Erl is an exceptional IEM, it is like a directly upgraded A18S, while the Thummim offers a level of performance and engagement I've simply been unable to find elsewhere. That is NOT to say that I recommend the Thummim over the Erl - it is simply which of the two I'd choose if I had to choose. As you can see, I chose both :D

IMG_1873.jpg
 
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Jun 24, 2020 at 9:43 AM Post #22,933 of 39,414
Woot!

Welcome to the erlky club, @mvvRAZ .

can’t wait to hear the thum for myself...
 
Jun 24, 2020 at 9:44 AM Post #22,934 of 39,414
Woot!

Welcome to the erlky club.

can’t wait to hear the thum for myself...
I forgot to add

I think these two make the absolute best, sweetest combo you can own - they’re the perfect complements to one another
 
Jun 24, 2020 at 9:51 AM Post #22,935 of 39,414
Let's talk Summit-Fi! In this discussion we've left concepts such as sanity and value-for-money behind, and are looking at some rather ****ing awesome money-no-object items - the best that the portable audio industry has managed to come up with

Disclaimer: I have paid almost full retail for both items, and I've acquired both the Thummim and the Erl at a rather comparable price tag. Neither company has provided any sort of incentive for a favourable review.

Since this is going to be a proper A/B comparison post between the Thummim by MMR and Erlkoenig by Vision Ears I'm actually going to go point by point outlining my experience with each and which I feel has the upper hand in that particular aspect. I do have to state that they're both insanely good products, and I can't clearly recommend one or the other one-sidedly, but I will also state my overall preference at the end of this post.

1. Packaging
This is one of the points where the Erl truly is unmatched, as it arrives in a huge wooden box, with plenty of accessories, stickers and whatnot. The Thummim offers a much more understated experience, with a very nice leather case, but not quite the level of the Erl

2. Stock cable
I've read that the LE Erl has a rather nice cable that it arrives with (my info is that it's produced by Hansound though that's not official). I purchased the original Erl however, since I liked the matte silver shells much better than the black ones, and I was able to get some discount on a mint open box unit (previously owned by @aaf evo, thanks for returning them buddy! :D)

Anyhow, I find that the Plato that is included with the Thummim is a much nicer cable with a more mid-centric tonality, whereas the regular Erl cable had a rather bright touch that I didn't enjoy especially. The build quality of the Plato is also significantly nicer Imo - a point for the Thummim.

3. Build quality and fit
I can't really say that one is better built than the other. The sockets are definitely better on the Thumimm, while the Erl has a more pleasant fit, though the weight does cause some discomfort on both IEMs. The pure silver shell is also premium AF, and I love it. I suppose you can say the Erl wins marginally here, and that both IEMs are miles ahead of the rest of the market, or at least as far as my experience goes

4. Sound

Disclaimer: I really did not like settings 1 and 2, and setting 3 touches on a treble sensitivity of mine, so all listening is being done on 4 and it looks like it will stay so. Setting 1 and 2 are pretty bass-heavy, but at the expense of technical performance Imo, so hard pass from me.

This is probably the toughest point to evaluate because of just how different the two signatures and presentations are. The Erl has a much lighter touch, with a flatter presentation across the spectrum.

Bass: The Thummim presents the lows as a typical well tuned DD would. Slow decay, massive subbass, excellent weight and texture. The Erl presents the lows as much more of a BA, with really good speed, control and a subbass/bass ratio closer to 1. In this specific point I think I prefer the Erl, as I'm not a huge basshead, and instead prefer flatter lows

Midrange: Probably the toughest one to compare. The Thummim does sport better texture here, as well as more weight and just general thickness. They're both absolutely excellent in that respect, and only really matched by the VE Elysium. Three titans, each one with a slightly different presentation throughout the midrange. I'd say the Elysium and Thummim sound quite a lot like how a DD would present the mids, while the Erl has one of the best BA-sounding midranges. I'd say the mids of the Erl might make for a slightly better all-rounder, though I'd still pick those of the Thummim over it personally

Treble: In my ever-so-humble opinion, the Thummim wins by a fair margin here. Better extension, more sparkle, better detail and control. The Erl does a great job with the treble, but is still somewhat short compared to MMR's flagship.

Soundstage: The staging on the Thummim is much bigger than that of anything else I've heard, Erl included. The Erl is somewhat better organised and you can tell exactly where everything is, while the Thummim wins with sheer size and awesomeness. This point definitely goes to the Thummim once again Imo

Detail retrieval: They're both wonderfully detailed, but the Erl is quite unmatched in this respect. Easy point to the Erl.

Instrumental separation: Marginally better on the Thummim imo, though very comparable. Can't really say which I like better, they're both insane in that respect

Overall presentation: This is where they differ most imo. The Thummim is all about how good your music could sound. It is a wonderfully exaggerated, over-the-top sounding IEM, which provides an experience that's quite simply incomparable to anything else on the market. The Erl takes a different approach - it takes a rather standard tonality and a rather standard soundstage and takes it to an absolute extreme in how well it performs it.

Personal preference: Thankfully I can afford to own both, but if I had to only pick one to keep, I'd still stick with the Thummim. While the Erl is an exceptional IEM, it is like a directly upgraded A18S, while the Thummim offers a level of performance and engagement I've simply been unable to find elsewhere. That is NOT to say that I recommend the Thummim over the Erl - it is simply which of the two I'd choose if I had to choose. As you can see, I chose both :D

IMG_1873.jpg

Sometimes when I read this thread I feel like I'm watching an old episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous-- very enticing but unattainable. One day maybe my fortunes will conspire so I can demo one or both of these.
 

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