flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Mar 28, 2019 at 1:19 AM Post #15,616 of 39,414
Personally, I think cables make a noticeable difference to sound. I can definitely tell that my cables sound different from each other and certain cables actually perform better than others. However, I still have no idea why iem cables can be so expensive. Is it the price of the material?
I don't doubt whether cables make a difference because I can hear it myself. I think I just hit my diminishing returns limit and deciding the prices werent worth the changes I was hearing and decided **** it and sold most of my cables...
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 3:41 AM Post #15,617 of 39,414
I don't doubt whether cables make a difference because I can hear it myself. I think I just hit my diminishing returns limit and deciding the prices werent worth the changes I was hearing and decided **** it and sold most of my cables...
That is the thing. Cables make a difference, but it never changes the characteristic of the IEMs and stays within the restrictions of "tinkering" with a set signature. I love tinkering like that, but it only makes sense if the IEMs are already to my liking (like my Phantom) and it is all about synergy, as different pairings give different results and it certainly is not a case of 'more expensive = better'. I love my Phantom with Leonidas II, the synergy is excellent, but the Fealty with Leo II sounded "off" to my ears. In fact, I had a bit of fun cable rolling with the Fealty and ended up back with the stock cable as my preferred pairing. Some pairings were nice, like Lionheart and Eros II 8W, but I simply felt something was missing because the stage dimensions changed too much for my liking.
I'd love to see cable manufacturers actually provide cable measurements to back up their claims.
Something like these, but you know, with differences:

130208_Blog_HeadphoneCableMeasurements_Graph_FRLeft.jpg


130208_Blog_HeadphoneCableMeasurements_Graph_ImpLeft.jpg


..or is it not possible for some reason? :smirk:

Well to be fair, cables can make a difference with headphones with low, inconsistent impedance through the audible frequency range such as low impedance IEMs with multiple drivers. But how they will affect the sound is based on the ouput impedance of your source, and the particular impedances of your headphones, and is not possible to generalize. In this case, how it alters the sound is based on the resistance of the cable and not its price or overall quality.
I would love for someone to actually look into this in a comprehensive way. I have always wondered if measurements could reveal something about the effects of cables, but also about the effective limits of measurements. For instance, what can measurements tell us of stage dimensions? If I use the stock Ares II cable with my Phantom the stage is quite intimate, but doubling up the wires to Ares II 8-wire expands the stage considerably. Where in the measurements would we be able to see that? Similarly, some cables have a liquid quality to how the music flows. What is that and where (if anywhere) can we find that in a frequency response?

Theoretically, can we make two IEMs with different driver counts/types that measure the same? Would they sound the same? Just a few things I have always wondered about, but never really taken the time to look into.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 4:01 AM Post #15,619 of 39,414
Mar 28, 2019 at 4:59 AM Post #15,620 of 39,414
never understimate the efficacy of placebo...

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect

the auditory system is not only nonlinear its signal processing organ is subjective not all that reliable...
While the placebo effect is real, it in itself is as much subject to proof as any other claim and you cannot apply it in an arbitrary fashion. Unfortunately in this hobby I see people use the placebo effect as a sort of free-for-all way of explaining away things they do not agree with or cannot (strictly theoretically) figure out how it would work. Especially people who proclaim to be scientific often do this and it is anything but scientific to explain away things you don't like the sound of.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 5:01 AM Post #15,621 of 39,414
Theoretically, can we make two IEMs with different driver counts/types that measure the same? Would they sound the same? Just a few things I have always wondered about, but never really taken the time to look into.
I really want to look into this if I do end up getting some iem drivers to experiment with. I get the feeling that there are many ways it could go. The biggest problems with iem drivers is that they are all fullrange drivers and that electronic crossovers don't work the same way in iems as they do in speakers. A multi-driver could be worse than a single driver if there are cancellation issues at each crossover point, but if one could make properly good crossover points then it would probably make a pretty good iem. Since I haven't gotten my hands on any materials yet though, this is all just conjecture.

I think there is a fundamental problem with measurement; from my understanding, measurement is far more sensitive than our ears. I don't have a technical background in this at all so I have no actual idea what I'm talking about, but from what I've seen, most frequency response graphs have to be smoothed over in order for us to have an idea of what something sounds like. otherwise, the graph is very peaky. There is also a question of time, like attack and decay and stuff like that. that's something a frequency response graph will definitely not show. A waterfall graph would probably help with that.

Regarding the people who mention placebo effect, I for a fact know that the placebo effect can work wonders, especially in the field of medicine, and I really don't want to see people saying that something is only working because of placebo. Then our placebo treatments will stop working and we have to come up with better excuses
 
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Mar 28, 2019 at 7:20 AM Post #15,623 of 39,414
Regarding the people who mention placebo effect, I for a fact know that the placebo effect can work wonders, especially in the field of medicine, and I really don't want to see people saying that something is only working because of placebo. Then our placebo treatments will stop working and we have to come up with better excuses
That is an important aspect of it. People who use the placebo effect as a means to explain away things, fail to properly address that the placebo effect can only occur under a very specific set of circumstances. The main problem in this hobby is the narrative in general.

Say I ask the question, then the typical response will be something along the lines of this:
Q: Can cables make a difference?
The answer:
A: No they can't. How can they?
That's the wrong question (the one from the answer) because in this case the question is rhetorical, rather than an actual open question. This is then followed up by a narrative that is constructed not to actually investigate the question, but instead "prove" the statement that preceded it. So any scientific literature that is proposed will on the face of it be supportive of the initial statement, ie. without taking into account the proper context of the information and applying it arbitrarily in a different context. If the question was actually proposed as an open question without the preceding statement, then such literature becomes part of a body of information to consider when evaluating the question. A body that also includes possible reasons why cables could have an effect. The aim would not be to "prove" one way or another ("proof" is a term most often used by lay people trying to sound scientific), but explore the subject without jumping to conclusions.

In the initial narrative that seeks to "prove" cables don't work, the placebo effect is often referred to as a way of undermining the credibility of anyone who does not agree with the preceding statement. It is a thinly veiled personal attack that aims to strengthen an argument of opinion, and discredit any differing views. It stifles the discussion by effectively suggesting that anyone who hears a difference is a gullible fool and not worth listening to. It is arbitrarily applied without giving any consideration whatsoever to the necessary conditions required for a placebo effect to occur. Instead, it creates a caricature of people buying into any claim without a second thought, almost like they have been lobotomised and have no mind of their own. And so it has nothing to so with the actual placebo effect, it is just a means of arguing an opinion. If anyone wants to claim the placebo effect explains it all, then they will have to prove (pardon the pun) that the right conditions are consistently met in every single case.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 9:50 AM Post #15,624 of 39,414
Anyway, I am being far too philosophical here. Sorry about that. :wink:

Who do we have around as the dedicated Shootout Thread Canjam Singapore Roving Reporters? @Deezel177 of course, who else is going?

I wouldn't mind (pretty please with sugar on top) to know more about these:
10265371.jpg

10265370.jpg


Kumitate Lab KL-Proto version 2.1 with 14mm DD and 3 BA, which are rumoured to be there.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 11:27 AM Post #15,625 of 39,414
@Wyville that wall of a text is a nice scathing critique of most of all self proclaimed "audiophiles" out there. "It's too expensive for me, therefore it's placebo... Etc"

Back to regular iem discussion: I really hope try Kumitate someday, they take top marks in designs and visuals, though sound sigs dont sound like my cup of tea.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 11:53 AM Post #15,626 of 39,414
@Wyville that wall of a text is a nice scathing critique of most of all self proclaimed "audiophiles" out there. "It's too expensive for me, therefore it's placebo... Etc"
Not really the intention, I just haven't been tickling my brain enough recently and then it can sometimes be a little bit of an unguided projectile with a severe case of philosophism. A bit like this:
6a00d8341c5f3053ef01b7c7edbe82970b-800wi

Back to regular iem discussion: I really hope try Kumitate someday, they take top marks in designs and visuals, though sound sigs dont sound like my cup of tea.
I have only had a brief opportunity to chat to Ito-san in London a couple of years ago where I also demoed the Lakh, which I remember were a bit brighter, but very nice with classical. Other than that Kumitate Lab is one of the more illusive brands and I am very jealous of Daniel's more privileged access to all the audiophile goodies. :wink:
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 11:57 AM Post #15,627 of 39,414
The issue in the cable debate is in my opinion multiple.

1) what are we trying to demonstrate? Cable work or don't work doesn't mean anything. Do cables affect sound in a measurable manner? Do they affect sound in an audible manner? Many people agree that they do, but that the difference is minimal, much less than the difference in source / tips / mastering or track quality

2) where does this effect come from?Theoretically, any impact should appear on the frequency chart I think, at least to be of any significance. My humble opinion is that any impact comes from cable resistance. I don't believe that other differences should affect sound. Based on this, cables are just like small impedance adapter, so why not just do that? But why change the sound versus the way it was tuned? Many people say that the Grace sounds better with a silver cable, but I talked to Earsonics and that is NOT how they intend it to sound

3) are some materials better than other? Theoretically, if purity of transmission is the priority, pure silver makes sense. But once again why change the intended sound? Get a proper source and fit or buy something else

4) why should SQ have ANYTHING to do with price? They is strictly no reason that the impact of a cable on sound be related to its price or the cost of its materials. This is 100% marketing

5) why should cables cost anything more than 100$? Cost of material doesn't justify it. Necessity to live off it for small companies does justify it, but I don't care

My conclusion, I appreciate a well built and ergonomic cable that doesn't degrade the intended tuning. And looks pretty
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 11:58 AM Post #15,628 of 39,414
Not really the intention, I just haven't been tickling my brain enough recently and then it can sometimes be a little bit of an unguided projectile with a severe case of philosophism. A bit like this:
6a00d8341c5f3053ef01b7c7edbe82970b-800wi


I have only had a brief opportunity to chat to Ito-san in London a couple of years ago where I also demoed the Lakh, which I remember were a bit brighter, but very nice with classical. Other than that Kumitate Lab is one of the more illusive brands and I am very jealous of Daniel's more privileged access to all the audiophile goodies. :wink:

I am a simple lunatic, I see Calvin and Hobbes, I click like.

Intent aside, it does raise the oxymoron of treating subjectivism as objectivism. IE you look and sound in denial of reality.

Honestly, all of us are jelly of Daniel's access, his reviews are probably the closest some of us will actually get to some of those products. :frowning2:
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 12:05 PM Post #15,629 of 39,414
My conclusion, I appreciate a well built and ergonomic cable that doesn't degrade the intended tuning. And looks pretty
I'm glad you didnt mention decent price, because then we'd be talking about unicorns and other mythical beasts.

Regarding degrading the intended tuning. I feel like a lot cables are marketed as doing exactly that and therefore you should pay x premium. It also seems like large swaths of the market lap that crap up as well. If you have to significantly alter the signature of your IEMs, you're a flaming idiot and you wasted your money.
 
Mar 28, 2019 at 12:30 PM Post #15,630 of 39,414
2) where does this effect come from?Theoretically, any impact should appear on the frequency chart I think, at least to be of any significance. My humble opinion is that any impact comes from cable resistance. I don't believe that other differences should affect sound. Based on this, cables are just like small impedance adapter, so why not just do that?
All good points, but this one occurred to me as well. That is how I would test it and see what it does. Can you effectively reduce the property of a cable and its material into a single impedance adapter (or something similar). I hope that at some point someone will find a way to play around with that thought.
 

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