[castleofargh]

Luisdent, nice feedback here. I agree on almost everything, except the fact that er4 and f111 have the same signature ^_^. an old graph of a prototype that changed name twice since, didn't convince my ears about that.
to me the 111 sounded like a tamed er4. overall it felt as if there were a few db less in all the upper mid section and after, so the lower mid could bring some of its lush effect on sound.
 
 
now about imaging, er4 are placing the instruments pretty much on a single line going from one ear to the other. the f111 is going up a lot and has some depth too so what you described is very true, you get to pick an instrument alone somewhere therefore it is easier to "analyze" it. on the other hand the er4 has so much resolution that you can still get to find this instrument despite the linear imaging. but it's more work ^_^.
if you get the opportunity, try an er4 balanced on a RSA amp. there is a shift in the sound signature because of the warm RSA house sound, but else you get pretty much the best of both worlds, er4 surgical definition, and 3D positioning(lot of depth) to pick any instrument alone (also an ER4 really shines with a good amp but that's another story).
 
in the end the F111 is more of an all rounder (in a good way) , when the er4 stays unique on many accounts. I would only recommend the er4 to very few distinct people who seek that slap in the face, when I could recommend the F111 to almost anyone.
 
 
 
@Unitytitan no you can't sleep with the 111, they wouldn't operate on your brain without anesthetic like the er4 because you physically can't go deep, but they are pretty long and stick out too much to put your head on it with comfort. be careful not to strangle yourself with the cable if you sleep with IEMs. it may sound far fetched but **** happens.

 

[music_4321]

It's interesting how differently we hear things and/or how we describe them.

I would never call the F111 a good all-rounder—far from it. I'd say the F111 shines with well-recorded / mastered material, plenty of acoustic sets and handles orchestral classical works pretty well. It wasn't convincing enough with chamber music, plenty of pop music and quite a few modern rock recordings. All of this to these sparrow's ears, of course.

I don't find the F111s adequate for low-volume listening at all, as low frequencies take a hit, even more so at such volumes.

Never found the F111s to sound 3D or 3D-ish—perhaps they do if you're coming from the ER4s? The 334s were very 3D, layering being one of the 334's strong suits, along with very impressive soundstage for a BA-based IEM.

Don't know who it was who said the 334s have 3 BA drivers — they don't, they have four.

(luisdent, have added your latest impressions to the first post)

 

[castleofargh]

eheh, all rounder was probably too much. all I said was with er4 vs 111 in mind.
people I've seen trying the 111 would love it, or not. for lots of reasons and personal tastes, but they would all say it was a nice IEM. on the other hand, people trying the ER4 mostly ended up making the same face tyll (innerfidelity) made when reviewing the beats by dre.  I saw the 111 appeal to more people on more genres. when I used my er4 almost only for classic.
 
same for the 3d imaging, I've heard better (and yes 334 would be of the impressive ones), I was mostly trying to illustrate the differences with the almost 1d er4.
 
 
hope this clarifies my last post.

 

[luisdent]

Would you say one could comfortably sleep with them Luis or they stick out too far?

i listen in bed on my back . But with the shallow fit i use i probably wouldn't lie on my side. Haven't tried yet.

 

[gnarlsagan]

It's interesting how differently we hear things and/or how we describe them.


I would never call the F111 a good all-rounder—far from it. I'd say the F111 shines with well-recorded / mastered material, plenty of acoustic sets and handles orchestral classical works pretty well. It wasn't convincing enough with chamber music, plenty of pop music and quite a few modern rock recordings. All of this to these sparrow's ears, of course.


I don't find the F111s adequate for low-volume listening at all, as low frequencies take a hit, even more so at such volumes.


Never found the F111s to sound 3D or 3D-ish—perhaps they do if you're coming from the ER4s? The 334s were very 3D, layering being one of the 334's strong suits, along with very impressive soundstage for a BA-based IEM.


Don't know who it was who said the 334s have 3 BA drivers — they don't, they have four.

(luisdent, have added your latest impressions to the first post)

We're getting into the more subjective stuff here, so it's natural that experiences will differ. I think coming from the ER4 makes a big difference in how one will perceive the F111. With that in mind I think what castle says is very true ime.

I also think what you say is true, that soundstage is better when moving to something like the 334. I haven't heard it but I understand how its FR can positively affect sound stage.

What's annoying to me is that recordings can differ by so much that totally different sound sigs are needed to do them justice. I'm experiencing this now with the IE800. It's the ER4's opposite is every way, yet sounds great with a lot of music. So weird.

 

[luisdent]

All righty then.  I was experimenting more with tips today and ended up using these all day long.
 
 

 
I found that if I actually push them in deeper than normal I get about 95% of the sound quality of my "perfect shallow fit".  And I get it 95% of the time by simply pushing them in pretty much as deep as they go and then backing off just a hair and making sure the pressure is equalized.  Basically by pulling them against my canal and letting air in so they equalize.  With this I get all of the treble up to the highest region, but it sounds every so slightly lower in level.  Really small difference.  However, being more consistent (so far anyway) that's a pretty good tradeoff.  I'll give it some more time, but these might be my tips.
 
Which tips are these gnarlsagan?
 
On another note.  These are the smoothest IEM i've ever heard as well.  They sound silky like the er4s, but because of the larger soundstage it seems even smoother in a way.
 
More later... gotta run.

 

[gnarlsagan]

All righty then.  I was experimenting more with tips today and ended up using these all day long.





I found that if I actually push them in deeper than normal I get about 95% of the sound quality of my "perfect shallow fit".  And I get it 95% of the time by simply pushing them in pretty much as deep as they go and then backing off just a hair and making sure the pressure is equalized.  Basically by pulling them against my canal and letting air in so they equalize.  With this I get all of the treble up to the highest region, but it sounds every so slightly lower in level.  Really small difference.  However, being more consistent (so far anyway) that's a pretty good tradeoff.  I'll give it some more time, but these might be my tips.

Which tips are these gnarlsagan?

On another note.  These are the smoothest IEM i've ever heard as well.  They sound silky like the er4s, but because of the larger soundstage it seems even smoother in a way.

More later... gotta run.

I think those are the vsonic biflanges. Not 100% sure though.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

We're getting into the more subjective stuff here, so it's natural that experiences will differ. I think coming from the ER4 makes a big difference in how one will perceive the F111. With that in mind I think what castle says is very true ime.

I also think what you say is true, that soundstage is better when moving to something like the 334. I haven't heard it but I understand how its FR can positively affect sound stage.

What's annoying to me is that recordings can differ by so much that totally different sound sigs are needed to do them justice. I'm experiencing this now with the IE800. It's the ER4's opposite is every way, yet sounds great with a lot of music. So weird.

 
I honestly don't think the FR is enough to explain the 334's layering and sounstage qualities.

I personally had issues with both 334s & IE800s;  I found both often had a bit too much bass for my liking, but they're excellent phones in their own right, very headphone-like, unlike the F111s — FWIW, I'd still take the 334s over the IE800s (the bass / low-end issues I had were different, BTW). I'll soon find out whether I find that sweet spot with the Parterres.
 
So far, not only the best all-rounder, but the best IEM I've heard is the K3003, as you well know; never mind what the FR charts say about the AKGs as I've found 3 different graphs and… well, while interesting to look at, analyse bits here and there & compare each one, ultimately, at least for me, they didn't say that much me. I don't ignore FR charts, but as I've said a number of times, I take them with a pinch (or two) of salt (won't go into that again now).

Now, not only do we have different ways in which we perceive the same sounds and the way we describe said sounds, but we also have different music tastes, different volume preferences, we often get a different fit, we have different sources, different frequency tolerances / thresholds, different moods at at different times we listen to the same piece of music—we're not always ready to listen to music, even, just like we don't always want to eat, drink, sleep or have sex. And all of us, to a lesser or greater extent, have our biases—some we recognise but choose to ignore them; some we are simply unaware of. That and more.
 
A standard? OW curve? Compensated this, raw that? Cool. Seriously. But NOT enough...for me.

The F111 is a very, very good IEM, no doubt about that, but ultimately it was not good enough for me. I've found two other single-BA IEMs more convincing, the FI-BA-SB & FI-BA-SS, but I'll leave at that as I already anticipate someone visiting this thread again and 'putting things right'—someone who will come and remind us all—and specially remind our very loving & lovable sparrow—of the terrible distortion present on those FAD IEMs.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

 
I honestly don't think the FR is enough to explain the 334's layering and sounstage qualities.

I personally had issues with both 334s & IE800s;  I found both often had a bit too much bass for my liking, but they're excellent phones in their own right, very headphone-like, unlike the F111s — FWIW, I'd still take the 334s over the IE800s (the bass / low-end issues I had were different, BTW). I'll soon find out whether I find that sweet spot with the Parterres.
 
So far, not only the best all-rounder, but the best IEM I've heard is the K3003, as you well know; never mind what the FR charts say about the AKGs as I've found 3 different graphs and… well, while interesting to look at, analyse bits here and there & compare each one, ultimately, at least for me, they didn't say that much me. I don't ignore FR charts, but as I've said a number of times, I take them with a pinch (or two) of salt (won't go into that again now).

Now, not only do we have different ways in which we perceive the same sounds and the way we describe said sounds, but we also have different music tastes, different volume preferences, we often get a different fit, we have different sources, different frequency tolerances / thresholds, different moods at at different times we listen to the same piece of music—we're not always ready to listen to music, even, just like we don't always want to eat, drink, sleep or have sex. And all of us, to a lesser or greater extent, have our biases—some we recognise but choose to ignore them; some we are simply unaware of. That and more.
 
A standard? OW curve? Compensated this, raw that? Cool. Seriously. But NOT enough...for me.

The F111 is a very, very good IEM, no doubt about that, but ultimately it was not good enough for me. I've found two other single-BA IEMs more convincing, the FI-BA-SB & FI-BA-SS, but I'll leave at that as I already anticipate someone visiting this thread again and 'putting things right'—someone who will come and remind us all—and specially remind our very loving & lovable sparrow—of the terrible distortion present on those FAD IEMs.

 
I agree with all of that.  I do prefer closer to flat based on the goldenears graphing system personally.  But I think flat should sound like a flat speaker monitor.  So for me I still gauge a phone on how much it sounds like a speaker to me.  They might be flat, but two earphones can sound very different in other ways as well.  I just go by what I like personally, and that happens to closely mimic a flat graph in most cases.

 

[Inks]

F111 is pretty flat on the OW curve which is based on the premise that it should mimic flat loudspeakers.

F111 is one of the best BAs I've heard but its flaw comes from the fact that the 1 driver can't cover the whole spectrum completely. It has subbass but at a roll off and lacks depth when compared a dynamic tuned with similar bass levels, the driver simply doesn't have the mass. Treble extension isn't bad, but it can improve there as well.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

F111 is pretty flat on the OW curve which is based on the premise that it should mimic flat loudspeakers.

F111 is one of the best BAs I've heard but its flaw comes from the fact that the 1 driver can't cover the whole spectrum completely. It has subbass but at a roll off and lacks depth when compared a dynamic tuned with similar bass levels, the driver simply doesn't have the mass. Treble extension isn't bad, but it can improve there as well.

 
Yes.  It shared pretty much the same sub bass rolloff as the er4s.  But luckily it eq's very well in that area.  I find the treble isn't as perfect as the er4s no matter what fit you get, however, overall it is indeed more speaker like that the er4s to my ears.  So I guess I like the OW curve.  A little more sub bass and treble "level" and we're good.  I don't have a problem with extension.  I hear treble past 16khz on the f111, but the highest treble from say 12khz to 18khz is slightly lower than what I would consider reference.  But with the perfect fit it's almost identical to the er4s for me.  With the "normal" fit it's more recessed.
 
I think they need to make it work with more flexible fit tolerances and it would be excellent.  The tip fitting is killing this for me and keeping it from being wholeheartedly the best earphone I've heard.  I put the pfe and er4s in and always get the same exact sound.  Not so with the f111.  However, I tried to tell myself today "it's $600, I can just eq my pfe112 or er4s and it's close enough to the same quality that I'm happy".  Then I put the f111 back in and the presentation and overall realism is just a step beyond those and makes it really hard to listen to them again and not hear their shortcomings in soundstage and presentation.  I'm sure I'll adapt if I don't have the f111, but i'm tainted with the knowledge of what they could sound like.
 
Bah!
 
UPDATE:
 
Upon further close comparisons, I think the main thing that really makes me like the f111 is the stereo width and smooth graduation between left and rightmost channel balance, and also the soundstage size.  Those two things have been, I think, what have been really impressing me about the f111.
 
The f111 would be a better value if a) the fit were easier to achieve and b) the fit were easier to achieve. haha
 
I tried eq'ing the f111 to sound like what I consider perfect flatness, and I used 2.5-3db of ass boost at 50hz and lower and 1db of treble boost around 11khz with a medium size q-width and lastly 2db boost at 16khz with medium q-width.  So really, you can see with my perfect fit they are pretty darn close to flat, but not really any different than the er4s in "how much" eq I need to use.
 
The pfe on the other hand only requires two cuts about -6db at 7k and -3db at 16k.  Go figure... CUTTING 16khz.  There aren't many that even reproduce 16khz at a reasonable level. ha.  Add a 2.5db or less boost at 3khz and we're talking reference flatness.  The beauty also (compared to some bass boosting eq i use on other earphones) is that they are mostly cuts, so you don't lose much gain precutting the eq to avoid clipping.
 
I find the pfe112 are a better competitor in some ways then the er4s.  With eq they share an almost more 3d presentation with better instrument distinction.  However, even with both eq'd to what i consider flat, the f111 have more body.  It isn't just frequency.  There is something in the mass or size or thickness of an instrument that is more realistic on the f111 a tad.  Perhaps the decay is longer making them sound thicker.  That would be my beset guess.  I would guess the pfe112 have a shorter decay making instruments sound thinner and crisper, but not really any more realistic.  Both are very nice though, and I prefer them over the er4s for just presentation.  The er4s wins in isolation, smoothness across the frequency spectrum, especially with no eq, and noiselesness.
 
I've noticed that even with the f111 at a low volume or any volume, they bring out a very very small noise floor that the other two phones don't have.  It's like a really quiet tape hiss.  It isn't volume dependent.  It simply brings out some noise from the amp I guess.  I don't notice this during any music, even with quiet passages really, but if you wait at the end of a song for a few seconds or pause the song you can hear the noise if you listen for it.  The er4s and pfe112 are dead silent.  So they all have their strengths.  I'm hard pressed to buy the f11 due to the fit issues, but I'm trying still to get a system down...
 
Anyhow, I think my opinions on the f111 are setting in firm pretty soon.  I find that I'm pretty familiar with the difference and similarities to other earphones I own and I'm "comfortable" with the sound now when I fit them well.  So I'll be writing up a full review soon.  It will probably reiterate most of what I've already said, but nonetheless...  I highly recommend them for ety fans looking for a better presentation of that type of analytical flat sound.  I think most people will find them warmer with more recessed treble, but I recommend you continue trying tip options even after you think a tip won't work.  Go back to it later.  Try it in every depth, angle, pressure seal, etc.

 

[HeroicPenguin]

Quote:

 
Yes.  It shared pretty much the same sub bass rolloff as the er4s.  But luckily it eq's very well in that area.  I find the treble isn't as perfect as the er4s no matter what fit you get, however, overall it is indeed more speaker like that the er4s to my ears.  So I guess I like the OW curve.  A little more sub bass and treble "level" and we're good.  I don't have a problem with extension.  I hear treble past 16khz on the f111, but the highest treble from say 12khz to 18khz is slightly lower than what I would consider reference.  But with the perfect fit it's almost identical to the er4s for me.  With the "normal" fit it's more recessed.
 
I think they need to make it work with more flexible fit tolerances and it would be excellent.  The tip fitting is killing this for me and keeping it from being wholeheartedly the best earphone I've heard.  I put the pfe and er4s in and always get the same exact sound.  Not so with the f111.  However, I tried to tell myself today "it's $600, I can just eq my pfe112 or er4s and it's close enough to the same quality that I'm happy".  Then I put the f111 back in and the presentation and overall realism is just a step beyond those and makes it really hard to listen to them again and not hear their shortcomings in soundstage and presentation.  I'm sure I'll adapt if I don't have the f111, but i'm tainted with the knowledge of what they could sound like.
 
Bah!
 
UPDATE:
 
Upon further close comparisons, I think the main thing that really makes me like the f111 is the stereo width and smooth graduation between left and rightmost channel balance, and also the soundstage size.  Those two things have been, I think, what have been really impressing me about the f111.
 
The f111 would be a better value if a) the fit were easier to achieve and b) the fit were easier to achieve. haha
 
I tried eq'ing the f111 to sound like what I consider perfect flatness, and I used 2.5-3db of ass boost at 50hz and lower and 1db of treble boost around 11khz with a medium size q-width and lastly 2db boost at 16khz with medium q-width.  So really, you can see with my perfect fit they are pretty darn close to flat, but not really any different than the er4s in "how much" eq I need to use.
 
The pfe on the other hand only requires two cuts about -6db at 7k and -3db at 16k.  Go figure... CUTTING 16khz.  There aren't many that even reproduce 16khz at a reasonable level. ha.  Add a 2.5db or less boost at 3khz and we're talking reference flatness.  The beauty also (compared to some bass boosting eq i use on other earphones) is that they are mostly cuts, so you don't lose much gain precutting the eq to avoid clipping.
 
I find the pfe112 are a better competitor in some ways then the er4s.  With eq they share an almost more 3d presentation with better instrument distinction.  However, even with both eq'd to what i consider flat, the f111 have more body.  It isn't just frequency.  There is something in the mass or size or thickness of an instrument that is more realistic on the f111 a tad.  Perhaps the decay is longer making them sound thicker.  That would be my beset guess.  I would guess the pfe112 have a shorter decay making instruments sound thinner and crisper, but not really any more realistic.  Both are very nice though, and I prefer them over the er4s for just presentation.  The er4s wins in isolation, smoothness across the frequency spectrum, especially with no eq, and noiselesness.
 
I've noticed that even with the f111 at a low volume or any volume, they bring out a very very small noise floor that the other two phones don't have.  It's like a really quiet tape hiss.  It isn't volume dependent.  It simply brings out some noise from the amp I guess.  I don't notice this during any music, even with quiet passages really, but if you wait at the end of a song for a few seconds or pause the song you can hear the noise if you listen for it.  The er4s and pfe112 are dead silent.  So they all have their strengths.  I'm hard pressed to buy the f11 due to the fit issues, but I'm trying still to get a system down...
 
Anyhow, I think my opinions on the f111 are setting in firm pretty soon.  I find that I'm pretty familiar with the difference and similarities to other earphones I own and I'm "comfortable" with the sound now when I fit them well.  So I'll be writing up a full review soon.  It will probably reiterate most of what I've already said, but nonetheless...  I highly recommend them for ety fans looking for a better presentation of that type of analytical flat sound.  I think most people will find them warmer with more recessed treble, but I recommend you continue trying tip options even after you think a tip won't work.  Go back to it later.  Try it in every depth, angle, pressure seal, etc.

 
Agreed on the noise floor. The F111s are probably the most sensitive IEM I've ever used and hiss ever so slightly out of even the most silent sources (Pico Slim for one). I don't think I've heard anything it's dead silent on.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

 
Agreed on the noise floor. The F111s are probably the most sensitive IEM I've ever used and hiss ever so slightly out of even the most silent sources (Pico Slim for one). I don't think I've heard anything it's dead silent on.

 
Yeah, surprisingly it doesn't "really" bother me.  haha.  I'm pretty paranoid about noise, but if the fit were perfectly achievable I feel the overall quality negates the slight noise floor.  I haven't yet found it noticeable during actual listening.  But it is there.

 

[luisdent]

Ha.  "doesn't bother me" was an understatement.  I listened to them all day and not only did I forget about the noise, but I was thinking "man these are smooth".  I only just remembered they had the noise when I plugged them into my fuze with nothing playing and heard the slight "change" in sound.  So I'd say for me personally it isn't an issue at all.  I haven't listened to "everything" yet, so I guess it's possible music with quiet passages might be detectable, but I've listened to a good variety so far...

 

[luisdent]

Oh no.  I emailed musica acoutics about the f111 and they said this:
 
"We have stock of F111 now and that is probably the last unit in stock until later on or possibly no more stock at all"
 
No more???  Bah!  Why are all the best earphones hard to get?  The pfe series are some of the best and they went out of the business.  Is there another f111 dealer/seller?