[mochill]

Can't wait to get it

 

[SilverEars]

I recently got the E5000, as I wanted to find out for myself what was the hub-bub was all about? Especially with the bass. It's been an interesting experience I can say the least. When I first got it, it came with a silver cable, and I wasn't all that impressed with it. However, I did notice the potential with the high frequencies with the driver as it seems to have good control up top without being loose sparkly type highs. So, good potential for resolution up top. But, the dynamics sounded a bit muted, and mids not all that exciting. Then recently I got the FA high purity OFC cable, and I was quite surprised the difference it made. I don't think I've ever noticed such a drastic change with cables in the past. It just improved the sound considerably. The bass became much fuller, better controlled and the overall response became better balanced, although it is bass emphasized response overall. I'm quite surprised I'm getting this type of bass from such a small sized driver, the housing is so narrow.

Personally, I think it's one of the smoothest upper-mids I've ever heard. It's one of the best vocals I've heard. It's quite fun due to the bass and the vocals being so smooth. Generally an easy response, that is if you are ok with thumping bass (Which I prefer as I like bass as long as it's tight). Definitely type of tonality I prefer, especially up top.

Weird, it's the Final Audio E4000 cable? https://audio46.com/products/final-audio-c112-straight-mmcx-cable

That makes no sense. E5000 is suppose to be higher-end and with the stock cable, it sounds like that? And E4000 cable improves it?

 

[baskingshark]

I recently got the E5000, as I wanted to find out for myself what was the hub-bub was all about? Especially with the bass. It's been an interesting experience I can say the least. When I first got it, it came with a silver cable, and I wasn't all that impressed with it. However, I did notice the potential with the high frequencies with the driver as it seems to have good control up top without being loose sparkly type highs. So, good potential for resolution up top. But, the dynamics sounded a bit muted, and mids not all that exciting. Then recently I got the FA high purity OFC cable, and I was quite surprised the difference it made. I don't think I've ever noticed such a drastic change with cables in the past. It just improved the sound considerably. The bass became much fuller, better controlled and the overall response became better balanced, although it is bass emphasized response overall. I'm quite surprised I'm getting this type of bass from such a small sized driver, the housing is so narrow.

Personally, I think it's one of the smoothest upper-mids I've ever heard. It's one of the best vocals I've heard. It's quite fun due to the bass and the vocals being so smooth. Generally an easy response, that is if you are ok with thumping bass (Which I prefer as I like bass as long as it's tight). Definitely type of tonality I prefer, especially up top.

What source are u using with the E5000?
I find it quite hard to drive TBH, it has a rather low sensitivity of 93 dB. Sounds rather meh from lower powered sources but scales tremendously with amping.

 

[SilverEars]

What source are u using with the E5000?
I find it quite hard to drive TBH, it has a rather low sensitivity of 93 dB. Sounds rather meh from lower powered sources but scales tremendously with amping.

Hugo 2 as I find it sufficient to drive iems pretty strong.

With the LG V50 it does seem like it require more volume than usual.

 

[Edric Li]

The "final" review, pun intended: A definitive comparison between Final E3000, E4000 and E5000.

I've been wondering about their differences, and whether they are due to the earpieces or the cables. I could not find a definitive answer anywhere, so I took the issue upon my self.

==========================================

Audio source:
Hugo 2, fed by AK300 via optical.

==========================================

Foreword and my personal preference:
If you are reading this, you are probably aware how well the E series compare against higher priced earphones. I cannot stress this enough.
- In my opinion, very few TOTL IEMs are actually flawless, both in terms of tuning imaging/soudstaging. VE Erlkonig is one. I can't think of another one off the top.
- Lots of TOTL IEMs have too much of a character in their tuning. Lots of them are too bright (Campfire, FW10000, Dita, and maaany more), lots of them are too dark (JH audio, etc), lots of them are too warm (Empire ears, Beyer, etc), lots of them are too cold (too many of them, including Final's own TOTL).
- Some are close to neutral, but the frequency response is not smooth and I can hear it (KSE1500, A18t, etc). Some are neutral and smooth, but sound flat and boring (UE18, PP8, QDC)
- There is a recent trend to make TOTL IEMs that are neutral, flat and not boring, by having a dip in the upper-bass/lower-mids region (Sony Z1R, N5005), aka the harman target curve. I hated it. It's a gimmick to make IEM have impactful subbass while maintaining good transparency. The lack of warmth only sound good at first listen.
- I personally value a nice, smooth, neutral, warm tuning more than imaging/soundstaging. To me, if the tuning is not close to my preference, I won't be bothered to hear how good the imaging/soundstaging is.
- The Final E series falls into this rare category. So if your personal preference/tradeoff is similar to mine, the choice among E3000/4000/5000 is only a matter of sound, not price, because they don't just compare well against other $200-300 IEM. They are better than a lot of $1000-2000 IEM out there. Paying $50 for E3000, $150 for E4000 or $250 E5000, are all incredibly good deal.

========================================

E3000/4000/5000 common attributes:
- Great ergonomics.
- Vented design to allow for more bass with the dynamic driver.

E3000:
- A nice, smooth, neutral, warm-ish tuning. Very hard to come by at any price point.
- E3000 is probably the most neutral, balanced of the three.
- E3000 is set back by its cable: the incredible balance is often times interrupted by treble glare. Common for IEM with a thin, low gauge cable.
- I hate treble glare.

E3000 vs E4000 (E4000 cable):
- With E4000 (E4000 cable), the treble glare is gone, thanks to the better cable. Treble quantity is also slightly less.
- E4000 (E4000 cable) has more subbass, thanks to the modified vent design. Think adding a subwoofer to bookshelf speakers. Music is now much more engaging and lively, with more depth to the sound. Remember I said E3000's warmth is almost already perfect? Yes, with E4000 (E4000 cable) we are close to the dangerous territory of "too warm."
- The imaging is slightly better thanks to the reduced treble sparkle.
- Everything else is the same.

E4000 (E4000 cable) vs E5000 (E4000 cable):
- E5000 (E4000 cable) has a tad more subbass. This is the only difference.
- My guess is that there is more dampening in E5000 for tuning purpose. I need to raise volume with the E5000 (E4000 cable) to match mid/treble quantity with E4000 (E4000 cable).
- To me, E5000 (E4000 cable) is one foot into the "too warm" category. I can totally understand if some one likes a bit more excitement in their music would go with E5000 (E4000 cable). For most of my music, E4000 (E4000 cable) have enough bass, some times more than enough.

E4000 (E4000 cable) vs E4000 (E5000 cable):
- E5000 cable pushes the mid range and treble backward. E4000 (E5000 cable) is much more bassy than E4000 (E4000 cable).
- I'm being nice to say that the E5000 cable pushes mid range and treble backward, as opposed to say that the E5000 cable veil the mid range and treble.
- Let's just say the E5000 cable is not an upgrade over the E4000 cable. I am not hearing a more refined imaging or a deeper soundstage with the E5000 cable. It takes away the air, takes away the vividness in the mid range, and adds boomy-ness.

E5000 (E5000 cable):
- The bassy E5000 body + the bassy (veiled) E5000 cable = so boomy, so little air. I can't breathe.
- E5000 (E5000 cable) is like a worse Xelento. Xelento has a lot of bass, too much for my taste, but at least the bass is clean. Xelento also got more treble to balance that out. E5000 (E5000 cable), not so much.
- Have you ever heard JH Roxanne with bass turned to 3 o'clock? This is close to that.

E5000 (E4000 cable) vs E4000 (E5000 cable):
- This sounds like a tough choice with the way it is going, but no, E5000 (E4000 cable) is better hands down.
- E4000 (E5000 cable) has more bass, mid bass in particular, than E5000 (E4000 cable), and a lot less air and a lot less vividness.

E4000 (E5000 cable) vs E5000 (E5000 cable):
- In my book E4000 (E5000 cable) is already quite boomy; E5000 (E5000 cable) is just unbearable.
- (Bass_E5000body - Bass_E4000body) < (Bass_E5000cable - Bass_E4000cable), if math helps.

=======================================

My personal preference:
1. E4000 (E4000 cable) >
2. E5000 (E4000 cable) >
3. E3000 >>>
4. E4000 (E5000 cable) >
5. E5000 (E5000 cable)

=======================================

My advice:
- If you like bass more than I do (which, trust me, is very unlikely), get the E5000 and stay away from its cable. You can get the E4000 cable for its nice ergonomics, but something nicer could probably improve other aspects of the sound.
- If your taste is similar to mine (neutral-warmish), get the E4000. You could swap in some cable that improves imaging and soundstage, but at the cost of (most probably) worse ergonomics.
- If you prefer a more neutral tuning, get the E4000 and start cable swapping. Getting a tad more treble or a tad less bass out of E4000 should not be a hard job.
- If you prefer a more neutral tuning and can bear occasional treble sparkle, get the E3000.
- If you don't like warmth in your music, or if you are a fan of the harman curve, don't get E3000/4000/5000.
- The E5000 cable perhaps is not as bad as I make it sounds like. For some IEM that needs more low frequency, it can help. But if that is your purpose, there are better options out there (with worse ergonomics) that does the job without taking away the air and vividness in the music.
- The E eartip is one of the most sub-bass-preserving eartip on the market. I like how it feels, so I didn't bother changing the sound from that direction. Just be aware that there are other eartip out there with less bass.

Weird, it's the Final Audio E4000 cable? https://audio46.com/products/final-audio-c112-straight-mmcx-cable

That makes no sense. E5000 is suppose to be higher-end and with the stock cable, it sounds like that? And E4000 cable improves it?

Yes, your impression agrees with mine.

 

[SilverEars]

Yes, your impression agrees with mine.

That is so interesting, and I don't know how we can have the same impression! Like I said, in this case, the cable difference is quite obvious, and just seems so odd how obvious it was. I don't know what is going on, impedance difference? No idea.

So, is it safe to assume comparing E4000 and 5000 with their stock cables, E4000 wins. but E5000 can be improved with E4000 cable? Well, I will be finding out and let yall know. It's weird how I got sent the E4000 cable after I got the E5000. It's like Final knew I needed to try it. lol

In some respects the E5000 is quite good, but in some respects, it could be better. I find it interesting how large the imaging gets for such a narrow housed iem. Certain imaged sounds seem quite good, but others a bit blended, not standing out much. Bass has good quantity or a bit elevated quantity for 'reference' listeners, but it's a bit boxy with certain tracks. I wish it hits a bit softer, not as hard and release a little softly with the subs. Different tracks reveals this in various ways. Certain passages sound brilliant, but others less to be desired with certain sounds.

Maybe the bass sound being boxy is due to the small housing? It's weird because certain tracks have bass that gets boxy, and others not.

It's interesting how Final messed this up with the cable situation.

I think I threw away the E1000 and kept the tips as I luv the Final Audio tips. Disliked the sound. I bought it just for the tips.

 

[Edric Li]

That is so interesting, and I don't know how we can have the same impression! Like I said, in this case, the cable difference is quite obvious, and just seems so odd how obvious it was. I don't know what is going on, impedance difference? No idea.

So, is it safe to assume comparing E4000 and 5000 with their stock cables, E4000 wins. but E5000 can be improved with E4000 cable? Well, I will be finding out and let yall know. It's weird how I got sent the E4000 cable after I got the E5000. It's like Final knew I needed to try it. lol

It's interesting how Final messed this up.

I think I threw away the E1000 and kept the tips as I luv the Final Audio tips. Disliked the sound. I bought it just for the tips.

My theory of how the E5000 cable (C106) gained popularity globally is that:
1. TOTL iems are getting brighter and colder compared to, say, pre-2015. It's gotten worse since the publish of the Harman curve.
2. In response, TOTL cables are getting darker and warmer. This is true for a lot of the OG cable makers (e.g. Beat Audio) as well as new comers (e.g. Nobunaga Labs). The popularity of adding gold to cables made this worse.
3. C106 is warm. It solves the problem of these TOTL at a reasonable price in the eyes of those pulled the trigger on a TOTL IEM.
4. People saw others pairing C106 with TOTL IEMs and assumed that it must be good.
5. People saw Final pairing C106 with A8000, a final's own TOTL that is very bright, and assumed that it must be good.
5. C106 looks expensive, is well built, and has good ergonomics.

 

[sndp]

I'll also try to revive my crappy DIY rig and see if I can measure it.

I posted measurements for the A4000 (and ER2XR for comparison) from my crappy DIY rig. Please take them with a grain of salt:
https://soundchaser.org/final-a4000-measurement-fr-and-comparison-with-etymotic-er2xr/

 

[zenki]

Finally...

 

[SilverEars]

I posted measurements for the A4000 (and ER2XR for comparison) from my crappy DIY rig. Please take them with a grain of salt:
https://soundchaser.org/final-a4000-measurement-fr-and-comparison-with-etymotic-er2xr/

Looks like they elevated the treble again.. Why?

 

[sndp]

Looks like they elevated the treble again.. Why?

It doesn't sound as elevated as it looks on my graph. Don't take my graph too seriously. It's just meant to give a general idea of the shape and I wouldn't trust it for the specifics.

 

[dakanao]

I recently got the E5000, as I wanted to find out for myself what was the hub-bub was all about? Especially with the bass. It's been an interesting experience I can say the least. When I first got it, it came with a silver cable, and I wasn't all that impressed with it. However, I did notice the potential with the high frequencies with the driver as it seems to have good control up top without being loose sparkly type highs. So, good potential for resolution up top. But, the dynamics sounded a bit muted, and mids not all that exciting. Then recently I got the FA high purity OFC cable, and I was quite surprised the difference it made. I don't think I've ever noticed such a drastic change with cables in the past. It just improved the sound considerably. The bass became much fuller, better controlled and the overall response became better balanced, although it is bass emphasized response overall. I'm quite surprised I'm getting this type of bass from such a small sized driver, the housing is so narrow.

Personally, I think it's one of the smoothest upper-mids I've ever heard. It's one of the best vocals I've heard. It's quite fun due to the bass and the vocals being so smooth. Generally an easy response, that is if you are ok with thumping bass (Which I prefer as I like bass as long as it's tight). Definitely type of tonality I prefer, especially up top.

That’s the effect silver plated copper and regular silver cables (even more than silver plated copper) have on the sound. Thins out the lower-mids and bass, and brightens the upper-mids and treble.

 

[SilverEars]

That’s the effect silver plated copper and regular silver cables (even more than silver plated copper) have on the sound. Thins out the lower-mids and bass, and brightens the upper-mids and treble.

What I notice is that it buffs out the mids and reduces separation, it weird. Why I do not like over-priced aftermarket cables is because I heard of 'high-end' cable ridiculously expensive, and did the same crap, and sounded wrong.

My theory of how the E5000 cable (C106) gained popularity globally is that:
1. TOTL iems are getting brighter and colder compared to, say, pre-2015. It's gotten worse since the publish of the Harman curve.
2. In response, TOTL cables are getting darker and warmer. This is true for a lot of the OG cable makers (e.g. Beat Audio) as well as new comers (e.g. Nobunaga Labs). The popularity of adding gold to cables made this worse.
3. C106 is warm. It solves the problem of these TOTL at a reasonable price in the eyes of those pulled the trigger on a TOTL IEM.
4. People saw others pairing C106 with TOTL IEMs and assumed that it must be good.
5. People saw Final pairing C106 with A8000, a final's own TOTL that is very bright, and assumed that it must be good.
5. C106 looks expensive, is well built, and has good ergonomics.

My Ranking is different from yours. My best is E5000 (E4000 cable) > E4000 (E4000 cable) > E5000 (E5000 cable)

I think in general E5000 has the better technical chops in terms of imaging and sound stage.

I think I'm getting channel imbalance with E4000 and it generally seems that these series are of questionable QC. If we look at measurements with channel imbalance.

both are underwhelming in terms of separation for imaging.

 

[Edric Li]

What I notice is that it buffs out the mids and reduces separation, it weird. Why I do not like over-priced aftermarket cables is because I heard of 'high-end' cable ridiculously expensive, and did the same crap, and sounded wrong.


My Ranking is different from yours. My best is E5000 (E4000 cable) > E4000 (E4000 cable) > E5000 (E5000 cable)

I think in general E5000 has the better technical chops in terms of imaging and sound stage.

I think I'm getting channel imbalance with E4000 and it generally seems that these series are of questionable QC. If we look at measurements with channel imbalance.

both are underwhelming in terms of separation for imaging.

I did not hear better imaging or soundstage from the E5000 (body), I only heard more midbass. YMMV. E4000 (E4000 cable) already has too much bass for my taste; with E5000 (E4000 cable) I might have to switch from my Hugo2 to something colder sounding.

Channel imbalance is real, for the entire E series. I have 5 pairs of E4000 just so I can mix and match and pick out 1 pair that is as balance as they get.



I agree with your comment about underwhelming imaging and separation if we are talking about absolute performance (as opposed to comparing to their competition in that price range). I like them mostly because of 1) form factor and 2) sound signature. I find these two aspects largely dictate how much time everyday I spend listening to music, and E4000 is doing that for me.

 

[SilverEars]

I did not hear better imaging or soundstage from the E5000 (body), I only heard more midbass. YMMV. E4000 (E4000 cable) already has too much bass for my taste; with E5000 (E4000 cable) I might have to switch from my Hugo2 to something colder sounding.

Channel imbalance is real, for the entire E series. I have 5 pairs of E4000 just so I can mix and match and pick out 1 pair that is as balance as they get.



I agree with your comment about underwhelming imaging and separation if we are talking about absolute performance (as opposed to comparing to their competition in that price range). I like them mostly because of 1) form factor and 2) sound signature. I find these two aspects largely dictate how much time everyday I spend listening to music, and E4000 is doing that for me.

Interesting, we get the same impression when it comes to what E4000 cable does to bass. It does indeed increase the bass by a large margin, but I also prefer what it does to bass to the E5000 bass. It is quite elevated, but not the kind of bass that causes thickness to the lower-mids, so the bass is well separated and tight although fairly large in quantity. I do like how such a small housed 6.3mm driver can create such a largely perceived area of bass, and that creates a impression of a large sound stage for me. For me, it's one of the more larger staged iem, which is interesting given it's housing and driver size. This tells me it doesn't have to be the size of the driver to create large area bass. I was underwhelmed how much air ER2 moved air. This one is much more interesting in terms of the way air is moved for bass. There must be something to their deign with the housing shown in the box.

It's likely that I prefer more bass than you.

Wow, you are dedicated when it comes to getting the sound right. Having 5 sets to match the drivers. I do find it's non-fatiguing nature being the charm with the fun bass.

Given you were a fan of Erlkonig sig, I can see why you'd like the tonal sig of this iem. I stear toward this type of tone as well. I'm not saying E5000 is an Erlkonig with it's excellent timbre however. I understand your comments about iems with strong treble that causes unpleasantness.