[Anaxilus]

 
Quote:

If the goal is just to get more volume out, I am pretty sure a CmoyBB can do a better job. However, amping is not about getting loud volume (or coloration), but getting the control of power / current reserve / voltage swing for the headphone to take benefit of / perform better. I won't call the increase of gain as 'improve version', as setting higher gain introduce more potential for distortion, which is the first thing to avoid in any amping. Just because It is done on request doesn't mean it is actually better. To me, the only thing that really needs to be improved is its transparency, a gain switch will be very nice but it is not the priority since the majority of IEM / earbud out there doesn't really need that much power to begin with.

While I agree an amp can do what you say and the E7 can apparently do that to a degree, the primary function of an amp is amplification.  That means to amplify the power and signal of the source.  Conditioning the signal is a secondary benefit and tends toward being a line conditioner more than an amplifier.  If you can do both then that's ideal.  The argument just doesn't hold IMO when the E7 used as a DAC has a higher gain than the HO.  I'm sure this discrepancy is intentional in the design, and that's fine.  I just don't think consumer expectations are in line with what you are defining as amplification.  What about the ER4-S at 100ohms?  You really want to tell them sorry your IEM wasn't designed for our amp?  

 

[ClieOS]

If amplification is the primary function, than an E3 or Boostaroo can do that just fine, what is the point of buying a more expensive amp? There are more to just amplification, thus that is why some amp are better / more expensive than other. Even with the same gain factor, a 3MOVE will still sound better than a T3D, and a T3D will still sound better than an E7 - it has nothing to do with how much the signal has been amplified, but the difference / refinement in control.
 
Also, E7 gain factor is set by the power amp chip and it is the same for both analog-in as well as DAC, so there is not such thing as different gain on analog-in vs. DAC. The difference is that the DAC has a better / more powerful output that most DAP's headphone-out, simply on the fact that it is a line-level signal while DAP's HO isn't. Crap-in-crap-out is just the basic principle. I never find E7 volume to be not enough when I use it with my Fuze's LO (20/60 is the regular volume). If you really think about it, most who connect their iPod / iMod / diyMod via LOD to an amp will never likely need the extra amplification (*louder volume). Even at zero gain, the maximum volume on the amp will be at the same level as line-level. Unless you are using a very very difficult to drive headphone, the chance is you are not going to max out on the amp (which is the same as connecting the headphone directly to LO) and thus you do not need any amplification on the signal level at all. I do have ER4S so I can speak from personal experience that I can drive it to sufficient loudness with just my Fuze's HO. What an amp (via Fuze LO) provides is the extra juice / voltage swing to turn it alive, at the same listening volume. You will be wrong to assume the E7 can't drive ER4S to more than sufficient volume, as along as you can provide a decent source at the front. Perhaps what FiiO didn't anticipate is that many user doesn't quite have a good source with decent output power, thus a gain switch will be used to get more volume out.
 
Quote:

While I agree an amp can do what you say and the E7 can apparently do that to a degree, the primary function of an amp is amplification.  That means to amplify the power and signal of the source.  Conditioning the signal is a secondary benefit and tends toward being a line conditioner more than an amplifier.  If you can do both then that's ideal.  The argument just doesn't hold IMO when the E7 used as a DAC has a higher gain than the HO.  I'm sure this discrepancy is intentional in the design, and that's fine.  I just don't think consumer expectations are in line with what you are defining as amplification.  What about the ER4-S at 100ohms?  You really want to tell them sorry your IEM wasn't designed for our amp?  

 

[Anaxilus]

 
So the DAC section is louder than the HO section.  The HO section is barely louder than the source.  Gotcha..

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

 
So the DAC section is louder than the HO section.  The HO section is barely louder than the source.  Gotcha..

Apparently not.
 
The gain factor for both the DAC and the source are the same. The DAC input is louder than the most analog output from various DAP - that is the point. If you have a source that has output higher than the DAC output, then E7 will be louder just as well.

 

[lilkoolaidman]

I don't see why people are complaining about volume. My E7 was able to drive my 580s at a volume of 40 (it goes up to 60). So either these people are using a HO of a source at a low volume. Or they listen really loud. I can also honestly say it sounds better than the HO of my iPod classic, which seems to be the point of an amplifier. From a scientific POV, amplification is simply a gain in the amplitude of a sound wave, but from a sound POV, it means better sound by unleashing, so to speak, the potential of a pair of headphones. I feel that the E7 achieves this with most headphones. Whether you like the E7 or not is HIGHLY subjective and relative (as is this whole hobby).

 

[kmhaynes]

Quote:

I don't see why people are complaining about volume. My E7 was able to drive my 580s at a volume of 40 (it goes up to 60). So either these people are using a HO of a source at a low volume. Or they listen really loud. I can also honestly say it sounds better than the HO of my iPod classic, which seems to be the point of an amplifier. From a scientific POV, amplification is simply a gain in the amplitude of a sound wave, but from a sound POV, it means better sound by unleashing, so to speak, the potential of a pair of headphones. I feel that the E7 achieves this with most headphones. Whether you like the E7 or not is HIGHLY subjective and relative (as is this whole hobby).

Are you using the E7 as an amp or DAC with your Senn 580s?  Using mine as an amp with my Zune 30, I had to turn the E7 all the way to 50 (out of 60) for the volume of the E7 to match the volume of the Zune, regardless of the volume of the Zune, which was probably 7 out of 15 or 16.  So the E7 was nearly maxed just equaling the volume of the source player.  At 60 out of 60, the E7 was only a bit louder than the Zune -- it wasn't amplifying by much.
 

 

[ClieOS]

First, I don't have the datasheet of the power amp with me now, but I think ~50/60 to equal the input volume is correct (or very near). The opamp controls volume by varying the gain factor and it is not fully linear. The way the opamp is designed, it will attenuate the volume first (in minimum volume) by reducing the gain under 1 then increase the gain to 3~4 (at max volume). Gain of 1 (equal loudness) is right around 50/60.
 
Second, when you are amping the HO of a DAP, do try to max out the volume (w/o distortion). This way not only you get a stronger signal to amp, you are also getting better dynamic range (which is that main point). For a general recommendation, I will say 80%~90% is desirable as this is where most DAP has the max volume without distortion. If you have DAP with very clean output (Sansa Fuze / Clip+ for example), you can even max out the volume.
Quote:

Are you using the E7 as an amp or DAC with your Senn 580s?  Using mine as an amp with my Zune 30, I had to turn the E7 all the way to 50 (out of 60) for the volume of the E7 to match the volume of the Zune, regardless of the volume of the Zune, which was probably 7 out of 15 or 16.  So the E7 was nearly maxed just equaling the volume of the source player.  At 60 out of 60, the E7 was only a bit louder than the Zune -- it wasn't amplifying by much.
 

 

[Jack C]

ClieOS is exactly right - when applied to a headphone output of a DAP, the key benefit of a headphone amp is not to provide volume amplification, but superior amplification. I illustrated this in post #13 in this thread:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495707/fiio-e7-or-cmoy-bass-boost-v2-02#post_6781213
 
The example illustrates how the E7 can significantly improve the quality of the sound from the headphone output of a DAP with real actual measurements.  If volume amplification was the goal, then what the listener would get is the same poor quality output, just louder. 

 

[kmhaynes]

 
Quote:

ClieOS is exactly right - when applied to a headphone output of a DAP, the key benefit of a headphone amp is not to provide volume amplification, but superior amplification. I illustrated this in post #13 in this thread:
 
The example illustrates how the E7 can significantly improve the quality of the sound from the headphone output of a DAP with real actual measurements.  If volume amplification was the goal, then what the listener would get is the same poor quality output, just louder. 

I understand and agree.  But I also recognize the some listeners put volume amplification on an equal footing with superior (quality) amplification.  The E7 does certainly provide a clean quality output.  However, earlier someone was wanting input on how the E7 would drive higher impedance phones (Yuin PK1 or 2s, I think?), which I felt it would not quite have the power to help there -- but maybe was wrong about that, since I don't have any high impedance phones.
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Fiio is making a new version E7.  That says it all.  The rest is pointless semantic debate about what 'amplification' means.  Perhaps those happy w/ the current E7 should start a new thread or petition to ask Fiio to stop development of the V2 since its so obviously unnecessary.

 

[Jack C]

Quote:

 
I understand and agree.  But I also recognize the some listeners put volume amplification on an equal footing with superior (quality) amplification.  The E7 does certainly provide a clean quality output.  However, earlier someone was wanting input on how the E7 would drive higher impedance phones (Yuin PK1 or 2s, I think?), which I felt it would not quite have the power to help there -- but maybe was wrong about that, since I don't have any high impedance phones.
 

Having never tried the Yuin's, I don't know how the E7 will work with them. When driving my DT880/600 and DT990/600 phones, the E7 is only able to provide enough volume for relaxed listening. If someone is limited to using a headphone output that lacks volume in the first place, then the volume would be even lower.
 
I think the current E7 design provides 4dB of gain, another 2.5dB would put it at 6.5dB. This makes the E7 that much more versatile as a device. Whether the additional 2.5 is considered "unnecessary" is up to individual application.
 
Jack

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Fiio is making a new version E7.  That says it all. 

So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...

 

[cykoakustik]

 
Quote:

So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...

Excellent point.
 
But the cMoyBB is clearly advertised and labeled (on the circuit board) with a version number, i.e. [v2.02].  On the JDS Labs website, it's clearly shown what version is being sold.  There's a Revision History also.
 
How about the E7?  How are we supposed to distinguish which is being purchased?  How can we be certain which one a person will get from a website or on eBay?
 
Is FiiO going to clearly advertise it as version 2?  On the device itself and on the box?
 
I was planning to purchase the E7, but thanks to this thread, I'm going to postpone my purchase.  Or I might just purchase directly a JDS Labs cMoyBB v2.02 or iBasso T3.

 

[ClieOS]

Who knows? I doubt they even finish any re-designing it yet, left alone any firm release date. I do know they are still trying to fulfill their current order, which should take them some time.
 
On a side note, if you have money for a T3, goes for it. It is pretty big step up from both E7 and cmoy.
 
Quote:

Excellent point.
 
But the cMoyBB is clearly advertised and labeled (on the circuit board) with a version number, i.e. [v2.02].  On the JDS Labs website, it's clearly shown what version is being sold.  There's a Revision History also.
 
How about the E7?  How are we supposed to distinguish which is being purchased?  How can we be certain which one a person will get from a website or on eBay?
 
Is FiiO going to clearly advertise it as version 2?  On the device itself and on the box?
 
I was planning to purchase the E7, but thanks to this thread, I'm going to postpone my purchase.  Or I might just purchase directly a JDS Labs cMoyBB v2.02 or iBasso T3.

 

[Anaxilus]

 
Quote:

So by the same standard, JDS making of cMoyBB v2.02 makes v2.03 and future development 'unnecessary' as well? Perhaps a thread to tell JDS never to refine their product because how perfect it is now for some people? Or could we just assume any future development of cMoyBB is an definite indication of defect in v2.02 (or any previous version in the matter)? Hmmm...

As usual you fail to see the forest thru the trees.  They are only making a new version w/ increased gain because of the complaints to which you have said are unjustified.  It was clear from Fiio's post this was not product progression but a specific response to complaints.  You continue to defend a product that even the manufacturer considers to be flawed for some reason.  Quite suspect.  Keep telling everyone not happy w/ the E7 that they don't know how to use it.  I guess they are just holding it wrong huh.  How about you just accept that some people don't like the product and move on.  I honestly don't care about the E7 either way.  I do care that some of the defense of it seems to have an agenda.  If I go shopping for a sports car and you sell me a luxury car I guess I shouldn't complain because what I was really after was comfort and not speed, I just wasn't smart enough to know it.  Thx.