[Deezel177]

The faceplate on my Zeus' is starting to come off, so I need to know whether a gently application of super glue would be ok, or will an EE repair be the best option?

Cheers

I'd personally recommend Bondic. It's a clear, UV-activated glue that's usually the go-to adhesive in custom IEMs. Here's a link to their website: https://notaglue.com/

 

[Big Kev]

Then a little super glue first, if it still isnt good enuf then get the pros to do it

I'd personally recommend Bondic. It's a clear, UV-activated glue that's usually the go-to adhesive in custom IEMs. Here's a link to their website: https://notaglue.com/

I'll take a look at Bondic, although the reviews aren't totally reassuring mate. I just don't want to damage the casing, as it's extremely expensive to get them re-shelled again. I've emailed them for a quote as well, because if it's reasonable, then I'd be better off sending them over the pond.

Cheers for the replies, appreciate it.

 

[WCDchee]

Nowhere in any of ADEL's marketing - or in any of our posts regarding ADEL - is it ever mentioned that ADEL somehow makes you immune to the effects of excessive SPL. It's about as stupid as someone putting on oven mits and placing their hands in a raging furnace because the mits "protect you from heat." I even made it a point that ADEL's loss in isolation and resolution may encourage users to increase listening volumes and counteract the benefits of ADEL. This is why I recommended ADEL users either get used to the isolation drop, or only use ADEL IEMs in quieter environments.

How ADEL claims to protect your hearing is by allowing you to maintain higher perceived listening volumes for longer periods of time. In my experience, when I listen to non-ADEL IEMs and hearing fatigue starts to set in, it becomes more difficult to focus during critical listening and everything suddenly sounds more "dull". The first impulse is to then increase the volume, exposing the user to increasingly-dangerous SPL. Now, don't get me wrong, this does occur with ADEL IEMs too if you listen for extremely long periods of time at a moderate-to-high loudness level, but it happens at a slower rate.

Now, unfortunately, subjective personal impressions are as far as I can go with regards to ADEL, because I lack the scientific know-how to talk about it at a technical scale. However, now that @PinkyPowers has introduced @Cotnijoe's statements regarding ADEL - which are by far the most technical yet - into the thread, I'd like to know your perspective as someone in the field of medicine; is what Lawrence is saying sensible and factually correct, or are there inaccuracies in his argument that we should take note of? The post is below:

I have often been blasted around these parts for my skepticism on the ADEL technology. But if you would like my medical opinion on this, cotnijoe is not too far off.

Here's why I think ADEL does not work.

Let's talk about noise induced hearing loss. If you check out audio grams of individuals with NHL, you see a 4K notc. There is a reason that you have this. It is the natural resonance frequency of the ear, and as such, 4k sounds are amplified beyond others.

Hearing loss comes about with increased trauma to the hair cells in the cochlear. The cochlear is this snail shaped thing containing fluid and lots of hair cells capable of sensing vibrations from 20hz to 20khz thereabouts. Given the 4k resonance peak, there is most trauma to the hair cells detecting rhe 4khz frequency and thus the accelerated damage.

What does adel do? Adel claims to relieve pressure preventing the triggering of the stapedius reflex. Some say the stapedius reflex causes listening fatigue. That's not medically accurate. Listening fatigue is something that is not quantified Nor defined medically, it is not objective and therefore cannot be used to measure or quantify the objective effects of ADEL. The stapedius is NOT a muscle you can feel.

Now the stapedius reflex is described as a sort of that evil causes you to turn up the volume more. This is again thoroughly inaccurate.

Let us now examine how sound gets transferred to the cochlear. The tympanic membrane (eardrum) vibrates as sound enters. The vibrations are passed down through the ossicles (little bones acting as an amplifying lever system) to the cochlear, which vibrate the fluid inside and allow the hair cells to pick them up. When the stapedius reflex is triggered, it TENSES the tympanic membrane. This means that the same amplitude of vibrations externally (same volume) actually causes a smaller amplitude of vibrations in the tympanic membrane (TM), and as such the effective amplitude of vibrations reaching the cochlear is actually decreased, decreasing trauma to the hair cells. Thus despite what ADEL says, the stapedius reflex does NOT simply reduce perceived volume. It effectively cuts down the amplitude and trauma to the hair cells by damping away some of the vibrational amplitude.

The claim by asius is that pressure triggers the stapedius reflex. Firstly, I'm not all certain if it does, I have never read that in my medical studies (do correct me if I am wrong). Secondly, say it does, what does it mean? It means that playing at the same volume causes you to hear things louder with ADEL not because of 'perceived' volume but because a higher amplitude is actually being conducted to the cochlear. This means higher levels of trauma, simple as that, and accelerated hearing loss. So one can argue that having ADEL actually worsens noise induced hearing loss if you play at the sameness volume on the player with and without ADEL.

But wait a minute, it's not so simple is it? Am I saying that ADEL accelerates hearing loss? No. So assuming ADEL really reduces the stapedius reflex and makes things sound louder what happens when you have ADEL? Assuming asius is right so far, you will turn down the volume till it sounds as loud as it did without ADEL. At this point you hear the same volume in both situations, with or without ADEL, despite playing at a lower volume with ADEL. Does this mean your ears are protected? No it doesn't. Because in the case where the stapedius reflex is activated, the TM damps some of the volume away ensuring that the ultimate level of trauma to the inner ear is reduced.

And what does this all mean? It means that it makes no difference whatsoever to otological health whether ADEL is installed or not.

Feel free to ask me any questions and I will be more than happy to answer. I'm not an ENT surgeon myself but my Brother is training to be one and I can certainly clarify these things with him.

 

[Deezel177]

I'll take a look at Bondic, although the reviews aren't totally reassuring mate. I just don't want to damage the casing, as it's extremely expensive to get them re-shelled again. I've emailed them for a quote as well, because if it's reasonable, then I'd be better off sending them over the pond.

Cheers for the replies, appreciate it.

I've only heard good things about it on the Home-Made IEMs thread, but of course, if sending it back to EE is an option, then I'd recommend that 100%.

I have often been blasted around these parts for my skepticism on the ADEL technology. But if you would like my medical opinion on this, cotnijoe is not too far off.

Here's why I think ADEL does not work.

Let's talk about noise induced hearing loss. If you check out audio grams of individuals with NHL, you see a 4K notc. There is a reason that you have this. It is the natural resonance frequency of the ear, and as such, 4k sounds are amplified beyond others.

Hearing loss comes about with increased trauma to the hair cells in the cochlear. The cochlear is this snail shaped thing containing fluid and lots of hair cells capable of sensing vibrations from 20hz to 20khz thereabouts. Given the 4k resonance peak, there is most trauma to the hair cells detecting rhe 4khz frequency and thus the accelerated damage.

What does adel do? Adel claims to relieve pressure preventing the triggering of the stapedius reflex. Some say the stapedius reflex causes listening fatigue. That's not medically accurate. Listening fatigue is something that is not quantified Nor defined medically, it is not objective and therefore cannot be used to measure or quantify the objective effects of ADEL. The stapedius is NOT a muscle you can feel.

Now the stapedius reflex is described as a sort of that evil causes you to turn up the volume more. This is again thoroughly inaccurate.

Let us now examine how sound gets transferred to the cochlear. The tympanic membrane (eardrum) vibrates as sound enters. The vibrations are passed down through the ossicles (little bones acting as an amplifying lever system) to the cochlear, which vibrate the fluid inside and allow the hair cells to pick them up. When the stapedius reflex is triggered, it TENSES the tympanic membrane. This means that the same amplitude of vibrations externally (same volume) actually causes a smaller amplitude of vibrations in the tympanic membrane (TM), and as such the effective amplitude of vibrations reaching the cochlear is actually decreased, decreasing trauma to the hair cells. Thus despite what ADEL says, the stapedius reflex does NOT simply reduce perceived volume. It effectively cuts down the amplitude and trauma to the hair cells by damping away some of the vibrational amplitude.

The claim by asius is that pressure triggers the stapedius reflex. Firstly, I'm not all certain if it does, I have never read that in my medical studies (do correct me if I am wrong). Secondly, say it does, what does it mean? It means that playing at the same volume causes you to hear things louder with ADEL not because of 'perceived' volume but because a higher amplitude is actually being conducted to the cochlear. This means higher levels of trauma, simple as that, and accelerated hearing loss. So one can argue that having ADEL actually worsens noise induced hearing loss if you play at the sameness volume on the player with and without ADEL.

But wait a minute, it's not so simple is it? Am I saying that ADEL accelerates hearing loss? No. So assuming ADEL really reduces the stapedius reflex and makes things sound louder what happens when you have ADEL? Assuming asius is right so far, you will turn down the volume till it sounds as loud as it did without ADEL. At this point you hear the same volume in both situations, with or without ADEL, despite playing at a lower volume with ADEL. Does this mean your ears are protected? No it doesn't. Because in the case where the stapedius reflex is activated, the TM damps some of the volume away ensuring that the ultimate level of trauma to the inner ear is reduced.

And what does this all mean? It means that it makes no difference whatsoever to otological health whether ADEL is installed or not.

Feel free to ask me any questions and I will be more than happy to answer. I'm not an ENT surgeon myself but my Brother is training to be one and I can certainly clarify these things with him.

Thanks for sharing @WCDchee! I'm all for learning new things and you've made a lot of great points in your post. I do have some knowledge of how the inner ear works, but the intricate depths at which pressure - and thus the ADEL module - operate is still alien to me. I've noticed some correlations between your post and my personal experiences (especially the parts regarding listening volumes), but I have yet to find a scientific explanation for sensations like ear fatigue and relief that I've experienced in both ADEL and non-ADEL IEMs. Regardless, I appreciate the information you've presented on the thread (and I certainly hope everything you've told us so far is accurate ).

 

[Cotnijoe]

I have often been blasted around these parts for my skepticism on the ADEL technology. But if you would like my medical opinion on this, cotnijoe is not too far off.

Here's why I think ADEL does not work.

Let's talk about noise induced hearing loss. If you check out audio grams of individuals with NHL, you see a 4K notc. There is a reason that you have this. It is the natural resonance frequency of the ear, and as such, 4k sounds are amplified beyond others.

Hearing loss comes about with increased trauma to the hair cells in the cochlear. The cochlear is this snail shaped thing containing fluid and lots of hair cells capable of sensing vibrations from 20hz to 20khz thereabouts. Given the 4k resonance peak, there is most trauma to the hair cells detecting rhe 4khz frequency and thus the accelerated damage.

What does adel do? Adel claims to relieve pressure preventing the triggering of the stapedius reflex. Some say the stapedius reflex causes listening fatigue. That's not medically accurate. Listening fatigue is something that is not quantified Nor defined medically, it is not objective and therefore cannot be used to measure or quantify the objective effects of ADEL. The stapedius is NOT a muscle you can feel.

Now the stapedius reflex is described as a sort of that evil causes you to turn up the volume more. This is again thoroughly inaccurate.

Only thing I'd like to address is regarding stapedius reflex and its interaction/relation with ADEL or ADEL-like tech - which I think you got opposite, unless ADEL had some demo or explanation I wasn't aware of.

Yes, you're on point with exactly what stapedius reflex does. The tensor tympani and stapedius contract to essentially dampen the amplification of the signal transduction pathway. Fun fact, you can thank this mechanism for you not blasting your ears our every time you talk.

What I see as being a bit off, is when you plug in earphones and the change in pressure, you generally increase the canal pressure and that pressure prevents the TM from moving optimally, essentially dampening the amplitude of the signal. So if anything, putting on earbuds has a similar effect to the stapedius or acoustic reflex, rather than the reflex counteracting it. With venting/acoustic filter/ADEL, the idea should be that by removing that pressure difference, you prevent the dampening of the signal and thus, naturally, perceive a louder sound at the same "volume" on your device.

Very cool to see that you're brother's in ENT though! Hopefully someday I'll get there. We'll see how the test scores look first...

EDIT: Ah I did a bit of digging and I do remember that video demo with Ambrose. I'd honestly need to do more reading on the study he did (which I think he had some with Vanderbilt?), as the approach seems a bit different overall.

 

[Mython]

So moving onto something that has caught my curiosity, @Deezel177, how is it that you are so good at digging all those quotes? Man you got some mad skills.

The key is to barely have a life outside of Head-Fi.

As someone who spent approx. 2.5yrs on a continuous daily basis, overseeing the Mojo thread, I can attest to this!

 

[Tulku1967]

What I see as being a bit off, is when you plug in earphones and the change in pressure, you generally increase the canal pressure and that pressure prevents the TM from moving optimally, essentially dampening the amplitude of the signal. So if anything, putting on earbuds has a similar effect to the stapedius or acoustic reflex, rather than the reflex counteracting it. With venting/acoustic filter/ADEL, the idea should be that by removing that pressure difference, you prevent the dampening of the signal and thus, naturally, perceive a louder sound at the same "volume" on your device.

I think this is all about ...
This is exactly what I experienced with the APEX module

 

[istfleur]

What I see as being a bit off, is when you plug in earphones and the change in pressure, you generally increase the canal pressure and that pressure prevents the TM from moving optimally, essentially dampening the amplitude of the signal. So if anything, putting on earbuds has a similar effect to the stapedius or acoustic reflex, rather than the reflex counteracting it. With venting/acoustic filter/ADEL, the idea should be that by removing that pressure difference, you prevent the dampening of the signal and thus, naturally, perceive a loude

The problem with this is, it’s not the SPL you send to the tympanic membrane, but the actual SPL that goes to the cochlea that could cause the damages. Thus, if ADEL relieves the pressure in the ear canal and let the tempanic membrane moves optimally and eliminates the damping to give a better perceived sound, that does not protect your hearing, because if you have to turn up the volume more with IEMS that supposedly introduce a dampening factor, not the real SPL outputs by the player is gonna be perceived by the cochlea. Let’s not forget we also have to deal with the air in the middle ear which pressure varies too.
And let’s remember IEMs do not cause barotraumatismes.

 

[WCDchee]

Finally people are getting what I'm saying. It is absolutely ridiculous that it took this Long for people to start to accept my doubts on the claims of hearing protection.

 

[Wyville]

And let’s remember IEMs do not cause barotraumatismes.

If you are convinced that barotrauma can never be caused by use of (C)IEMs, perhaps you can enlighten me about what happened to my ears?

CIEMs are an ideal solution for me and I can get tremendous health benefits from them. I am also currently keeping a close eye on the release of the Phantom and if there is any chance of me using them without issues as CIEMs, I would absolutely love that.

However, when I got my first set of CIEMs I developed barotrauma (airplane ear) after a few weeks and ever since my ears have been more sensitive to (pneumatic) pressure, although they have been improving. My question now is: What caused the barotrauma if not my CIEMs? Or, alternatively: What happened to my ear if it was not barotrauma?

If CIEMs cannot cause barotrauma as you claim, there has to be an alternative explanation and, given the benefits I can get from CIEMs, I would love to learn about that!

 

[goodvibes]

If you are convinced that barotrauma can never be caused by use of (C)IEMs, perhaps you can enlighten me about what happened to my ears?

CIEMs are an ideal solution for me and I can get tremendous health benefits from them. I am also currently keeping a close eye on the release of the Phantom and if there is any chance of me using them without issues as CIEMs, I would absolutely love that.

However, when I got my first set of CIEMs I developed barotrauma (airplane ear) after a few weeks and ever since my ears have been more sensitive to (pneumatic) pressure, although they have been improving. My question now is: What caused the barotrauma if not my CIEMs? Or, alternatively: What happened to my ear if it was not barotrauma?

If CIEMs cannot cause barotrauma as you claim, there has to be an alternative explanation and, given the benefits I can get from CIEMs, I would love to learn about that!

I suspect the huge amount of pressure change some get from sealed insertion and removal is at fault for those that suffer that way, not so much the overall volume if kept at reasonable levels. While I don't doubt that there is more in play here than just the minor pressure change from playing music at a reasonable level I do suspect there is benefit for many that get a seal before full insertion with Adel or Apex since they would make that change less dynamic. Think of your membrane as a driver going though driver flex. I once broke an earphone with siren BA driver on insertion. Enough pressure from over excursion to break the lever attached to its diaphragm. That's a lot of induced pressure that has nothing to do with music or volume.

There is also the reported sonic change of a more open sound. Beyond that, if the volume is kept reasonable, I tend to follow along the Docs take on this. Doesn't mean that there is no benefit as many have found favor beyond the reported benefit of volume based hearing damage.

 

[WCDchee]

While it has been great fun expressing my doubts on the ADEL tech's claims of hearing protection, should we perhaps return this thread to EE?

 

[proedros]

any news on the 2 new EE models ?

 

[Deezel177]

any news on the 2 new EE models ?

Nope. The EE staff is still on their holiday break. I’d guess mid-January before we hear anything concrete.

 

[Wyville]

I suspect the huge amount of pressure change some get from sealed insertion and removal is at fault for those that suffer that way, not so much the overall volume if kept at reasonable levels. While I don't doubt that there is more in play here than just the minor pressure change from playing music at a reasonable level I do suspect there is benefit for many that get a seal before full insertion with Adel or Apex since they would make that change less dynamic. Think of your membrane as a driver going though driver flex. I once broke an earphone with siren BA driver on insertion. Enough pressure from over excursion to break the lever attached to its diaphragm. That's a lot of induced pressure that has nothing to do with music or volume.

There is also the reported sonic change of a more open sound. Beyond that, if the volume is kept reasonable, I tend to follow along the Docs take on this. Doesn't mean that there is no benefit as many have found favor beyond the reported benefit of volume based hearing damage.

Thanks! The problems with me happen after insertion and have, as far as I know, nothing to do with volume levels. Because I have ADHD I tense my jaw and neck muscles constantly and grind my teeth. All this causes a constant change in the shape of my ear canal and that has two consequences: 1) Acrylic CIEMs have no flexibility and this causes discomfort from physical pressure if the stem is long. 2) Constant pressure fluctuations that resulted in my eardrum getting pressed against the bones behind it (airplane ear).

While it has been great fun expressing my doubts on the ADEL tech's claims of hearing protection, should we perhaps return this thread to EE?

I don't mean to derail the thread. This, however, is also linked to my interest in the new Phantom. At the moment I have no option but to go for a universal fit, but if I can find a way to get CIEMs again, I would be very happy.

I spoke to Jack about my issues several months ago and he put me in touch with Canyon Runner with whom I discussed ADEL. At the time I was considering the Athena ADEL, now I am considering the Phantom (non-ADEL).

any news on the 2 new EE models ?

Patience... but yeah, I can't wait for the official announcement either!