[matthewh133]

Quote:

because low impedance is supposedly "easy" to drive, you were misled. I cannot understand why this misinformation continues to spread.
 

Sick rhyme there Uncle Erik, you should be a rapper

 

[NapalmK]

Quote:

Sick rhyme there Uncle Erik, you should be a rapper

 
Lol. I'd buy the debut single...
 
I do agree with Uncle Erik. I bought the D2000s when I first joined due to reading that they were easy to drive due to their low impedance so I wouldn't need an amp. They do sound okay without an amp (not $200 good) but gain a whole heck of a lot when properly amped. Same with the T50RP I have it's just 50ohms but it is difficult to drive properly. There is much more to it than just impedance. I've found amping is important with all of the cans I've owned to varying degrees but generally needed for most cans.

 

[wankski]

personally i think u're going about this the wrong way...
 
u don't have an amp, and it seems to me you're a fan of the AD700....
 
so...
 
why not get AD900s? by all accounts it is a better phone than the 700, and yes it adds bass. IMO it reads like u like the AD line of sound - and that's all that matters.
 
going by other's opinion that the 880s are superior is kinda crazy, its like buying a red car based on others opinion of what looks better, even tho u're partial to blue.
 
IMHO don't go the amp route just to make the beyers 'work'. I can't say this enough if you add an amp - u introduce something that can potentially change the sound and add artifacts and other background noise... its only worth it if you grab a high quality unit i.e.often meaning u spend more on the amp than on the actual phones...
 
also, true easy to drive phones like the AT AD range are much more flexible in that u can plug into anything, including your DAP. If you buy phones that require it, u need to bring a proper, usually desktop mains powered amp, to everything u want to plug into...
 
not ideal.

 

[dongringo]

Quote:

From what I've heard, the DT880 are very dependant upon being amped in order to sound as good as most people describe them to be, this is most likely your problem.

Very true. The DT880 shines only with a dedicated amp. Don't even bother with a cheap portable. Oh how sweet they are though when properly amped.

 

[I3eyond]

For what it's worth:
 
I've owned MS-1s for a while now. 
 
Got curious, and decided to try some new cans.
 
Tried the DT770 80-ohm pro's.
 
I returned them.  Why?
 
Sure, the bass was great, but way overbearing at times.  Also, no where near as much clarity as my MS-1s.
 
AND, the DT770s cost more.
 
Is this all a joke?  No, I don't think so.  However, there's a lot of different users on this site.  Complete noobs all the way up to the folks who think recabling their headphones will make a huge difference in sound.  And, while I'm not versed enough to say whether a certain amp or cable or source will give you a brighter, warmer, etc. sound, there's one thing to keep in mind: some people EQ, some don't.
 
Those that do EQ.. well, take the DT770s for example.  Sure, I could EQ them and crank the treble, but what's the point of that? 
 
I, myself, am still in the process of deciding on whether or not this is all just a "joke" or not.
 
I have always felt like forums are just ways for vendors, dealers, etc. to promote their product.  Imagine reps having reps.. that didn't call themselves reps, but at the same time advocated Source X or Amp X being better than Source Y or Amp Y.  Whether or not this is the case, well... let's just say maybe I'm being way too overanalytical, but it is a thought.  Take the Eclipse CD8455 head unit for vehicles.  It costed around $850 new in 2005.  Most car audio shop employees consider Eclipse to be junk.
 
Anyway, that rant aside... I have heard different sources with the entire Grado lineup, and...since I EQ (made the mistake of doing it on day 1 before I discovered all the negative karma associated with it), even a high end set of Grado out of a neutral source sounds worse than my MS-1s.
 
So, my point?  There are all kinds of users on this site.  I'm not discrediting any of them by any means necessary, as.. with my signature, you can see I'm using an X-Fi soundcard with PA2V2 amp---not exactly high-fi gear.
 
Yet, at the same time, when I've heard "high-fi" gear, it was just too naturally sounding since I'm used to EQing.
 
No, it's not a joke.  But maybe there is some placebo going on.

 

[wankski]

thanks for the post... it brings more clarity to the issue....
 
This is the no1 mistake many make in buying phones.... they see many 'audiophiles/phools' (take you're pick!) carry 880-600s in the sig or akg701s or similar and make the assumption that is the phone to get.
 
No.
 
1) Again as has been covered people have different tastes...
 
2) and this is a big one. Most of these phones require AMPLIFICATION, and i mean proper amping. Even the lower impedence models of beyer's line require a decent amp. The harder to drive varients almost always by necessary implication rules out portables...
 
I3eyond, if you were using your pa2v2 to power the beyers i can understand the negative review... also the ms1s are a very different sound to beyer's line generally, so that could go to evince point 1) above....
 
but ppl ought understand.... amping does not mean 'any amp'... the pa2v2 is much like a CMOY (afaik), a simple generic opamp, a few caps and consumer level batteries. You are using this correctly in relation to your ms1s, but to run any beyer or say akg701 off that is nuts. The idea of portables is to use them with portable players that have a very wheezey 3v source at best (much less going to the headphone out and near negligible current) and a very small amp section that at best is meant to run ibuds or similar... while some full size cans like the ms1s and ad700s can run with decent results off DAPs or coundcards a 9v intercept will power them that much better, and probably has a better opamp chip to boot... ( a 9v or even 18v cmoy would suit a higher impedence phone, but will lack real current carrying ability, the 2.4v NiMH AA powered pa2v2 amp will suit much lower impedence phones that need current to shine like your Ms1s)
 
but to compare the pa2v2 to a proper full size headphone amp designed to drive power hungry full size cans is a big mistake. A 'proper' amp circuit devotes a lot to cut out background noise and other anomalies, and often has 3 channels - some times even 4 for a fully balanced solution. This is obviously far more complex and 'superior' to a pocket amp that has a pcb the size of say 2cm x 4cm...The main concern of a portable is to conserve battery life and fit a tiny space - they'll do a better job amping than an iPhone or similar but that's about it....
 
Electical engineering teachers describe electricity much like water flow at the basic level.... incorrrectly amping full size cans that really require amping is much like trying to make a water wiggle work well at watering your lawn when there is little pressure at the tap with an outlet a size or two too small. you might soak a small area but leave the rest of the lawn parched.
 
But a tap with the right size outlet for the job (voltage) and high pressure (current) will really make that water wiggle fly and will yield much better results....effectively 'covering the field'... In both cases you may have water coming out the end, but in only one of those examples is the result satisfactory.
 
or you just might hate the sound signature of the phones... but the way you describe the sound points far more to not sufficiently driving them...

 

[kite7]

wankski, I think you're cover much of what I was going to say.I think some people do not realize the requirements needed in order to bring out the best of some equipment. For amps, loud does not mean sufficiently driven and I can't stress this point enough. I can see that it may seem mentally difficult to spend a lot on amplifier that costs as much as a headphone, but sometimes that's what's necessary and if you can't spend on an amplifier then you ultimately reached a wall in your choices of headphones. You can't look at it as if you're getting more getting more by spending $500 headphone without an amplifier compared to spending $250 on a headphone + $250 amplifier ; I know it can be hard to grasp that concept.  I'll often find posts about an expensive headphone compared to a cheaper one and how the cheap one sounds just as good, only to find out the more expensive headphone is heavily handicapped by the absence of an amplifier or a sufficient amplifier. What I consider the start of "sufficient" is around the $200-300 price range for an amplifier, not a $40 cmoy amplifier.
 
The OP should really look into some portable amps, unless you wish to limit your headphone choices

 

[Katun]

Thanks for the enlightening replies everyone. I now better which direction I should take in the future.
 
Quote:

personally i think u're going about this the wrong way...
 
u don't have an amp, and it seems to me you're a fan of the AD700....
 
so...
 
why not get AD900s? by all accounts it is a better phone than the 700, and yes it adds bass. IMO it reads like u like the AD line of sound - and that's all that matters.

I've been thinking that for a long time. I even tried to order them once, but Amazon was having issues.
 
The thing about the AD900 though, is I really hope it would be a nice improvement, and not a "slightly better" version. Because like you said, I do love my AD700, and any improvement would be welcome -- but not necessarily for $280.

 
Quote:

Quote:
 
Lol. I'd buy the debut single...
 
I do agree with Uncle Erik. I bought the D2000s when I first joined due to reading that they were easy to drive due to their low impedance so I wouldn't need an amp. They do sound okay without an amp (not $200 good) but gain a whole heck of a lot when properly amped. Same with the T50RP I have it's just 50ohms but it is difficult to drive properly. There is much more to it than just impedance. I've found amping is important with all of the cans I've owned to varying degrees but generally needed for most cans.

Whew, I'm glad you told me that! I was about to try the D2000 next!
 
I think I'll stick with the more basic stuff for now, I guess. Maybe even give IEM's another shot -- or stay in the "mid-fi" realm.
 
I'll be extra careful when buying headphones that look like they can be driven easily, but really need an amp.

 

[spidey]

Grado maybe? No?

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Grado maybe? No?

Quite possibly. I've been wanting to try a Grado HP for the longest time.
 
Only thing that is holding me back is comfort issues and deciding on which model.
 
If I got past the comfort issue, I could never decide -- Thanks to this thread...

 

[Catharsis]

Katun,
 
I personally think all of this amp nonsense is rubbish.  It's 32ohm and it's 96dB @ 1mW.  Later on tonight I'll break out the math and tell you exactly how much power (voltage / current) you'll need to get those phones to an adequate level. 
 
From someone who owns both the AD700 and DT880 and has 3 amps (one of them really beefy), I would AGREE WITH YOU in your original post, that the main differences between the 2 is that the DT880 has more weight, wetness and treble extension whereas the AD700 is lighter and drier.  You and I have had this discussion before in our PMs.  
 
I'm just trying to save your wallet, like I wish someone had tried to save mine.  All this amp crap is pure rubbish. 

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Katun,
 
I personally think all of this amp nonsense is rubbish.  It's 32ohm and it's 96dB @ 1mW.  Later on tonight I'll break out the math and tell you exactly how much power (voltage / current) you'll need to get those phones to an adequate level. 
 
From someone who owns both the AD700 and DT880 and has 3 amps (one of them really beefy), I would AGREE WITH YOU in your original post, that the main differences between the 2 is that the DT880 has more weight, wetness and treble extension whereas the AD700 is lighter and drier.  You and I have had this discussion before in our PMs.  
 
I'm just trying to save your wallet, like I wish someone had tried to save mine.  All this amp crap is pure rubbish. 

Thanks Catharsis.
 
The thing is, I actually have believed it -- that all this amp crap is rubbish. I have withheld for the longest time on getting an amp, because I honestly don't know if it will do anything! I never wanted to spend $300 or so on JUST an amp, yet alone headphones -- because I honestly believed it wouldn't create all that of a difference.
 
People have said that "this" headphone is better than "that" headphone because of all of these reasons: (as they list every reason why it's superior). Turns out, I have challenged many of those so called "comparisons" in which the "better" headphone was the clear winner -- but guess what I found out each and every time I compared some model to another? Teeny tinny differences in sound, that shape the overall sound signature rather than the overall sound quality. I could listen to a $80 and compare it to ones costing 2-3 times as much, and honestly, there isn't that much of a difference -- except for the fact of maybe a slight sound signature change. But why pay the extra for those microscopic changes?
 
That is what I have been trying to figure out for some time now. And I have my suspicions to headphone amps reacting the same way to my ears as my many comparisons. I'm afraid it wouldn't really do anything... Sure, people can dress up their description of sound with zealous words and extravagant knowledge -- but to me, I hear in a simple way. I don't hear what everyone's talking about -- I hear what is to be heard, and nothing more! I hear what an average person would hear, not a glorified audiophile.
 
My point being, that is exactly why I haven't moved to amp territory yet -- because it might just all be the same. I'm probably better off finding functionality in a headphone (comfort, sound signature, size, durability) rather than seeking for the ultimate improvements in SQ -- when in fact, they may be very minimal -- even with an amp...
 
This is why I've been an "unamped" user for all this time...

 

[Catharsis]

 
Quote:

Thanks Catharsis.
 
The thing is, I actually have believed it -- that all this amp crap is rubbish. I have withheld for the longest time on getting an amp, because I honestly don't know if it will do anything! I never wanted to spend $300 or so on JUST an amp, yet alone headphones -- because I honestly believed it wouldn't create all that of a difference.
 
People have said that "this" headphone is better than "that" headphone because of all of these reasons: (as they list every reason why it's superior). Turns out, I have challenged many of those so called "comparisons" in which the "better" headphone was the clear winner -- but guess what I found out each and every time I compared some model to another? Teeny tinny differences in sound, that shape the overall sound signature rather than the overall sound quality. I could listen to a $80 and compare it to ones costing 2-3 times as much, and honestly, there isn't that much of a difference -- except for the fact of maybe a slight sound signature change. But why pay the extra for those microscopic changes?
 
That is what I have been trying to figure out for some time now. And I have my suspicions to headphone amps reacting the same way to my ears as my many comparisons. I'm afraid it wouldn't really do anything... Sure, people can dress up their description of sound with zealous words and extravagant knowledge -- but to me, I hear in a simple way. I don't hear what everyone's talking about -- I hear what is to be heard, and nothing more! I hear what an average person would hear, not a glorified audiophile.
 
My point being, that is exactly why I haven't moved to amp territory yet -- because it might just all be the same. I'm probably better off finding functionality in a headphone (comfort, sound signature, size, durability) rather than seeking for the ultimate improvements in SQ -- when in fact, they may be very minimal -- even with an amp...
 
This is why I've been an "unamped" user for all this time...

 
I would say that you are one of the enlightened ones.
 
Here's my rather crude calculations based on the DT880 32ohm requirements for power.
 
P=V*V/R
 
1V into 32ohm = 31.25mW
31.25mW = ~111dB of sound
 
8mW into 32ohms = 0.5V
8mW = 105dB!
 
Turn your source potentiometer to deliver 1V (easy) and you'll get 31.25mW of power which translates to 111dB of loud!
Or, if your source can provide 8mW of power, it will take only 0.5V on the volume dial and yield 105dB...still loud.
I think my math is right, but feel free to point out any mistakes.
 
I don't mean to be an ass to all the amp thumpers here, but any audio professional will tell you that the purpose of an amp is to increase volume without distrotion or clipping.  Granted, you can purchase amps that colour the sound, but most pro amps don't - they just make things louder.  If that is your goal, than any decent source should provide adequate volume levels for a 32ohm DT880 - that's it, and that's all. 

 

[kite7]

I think you're better off trying an amplifier some day other than believing something you've never tried. Find some way to try one, maybe at a local meet. You can read all you want about amplifiers making a difference or not making a difference but until you've had your own experience, you will never really know. You can do all the math but at the end of the day, it hardly tells you anything about how an amplifier sounds; it sounds quiet and it sounds loud is what math says. You've bought several headphones and sold them, why haven't you put the effort to at least buy an amplifier and sell it in case it makes no difference to you?

 

[mibutenma]

Your expectations were probably way too high how big of a improvement were you wanting?
 
Anyways the AD 700 has so many flaws in its sound signature.
DT 880 is a much better sounding headphone.
It also needs 75 hours at the least of burn in.