[Kunlun]

 
Quote:

I used to be a treble head for most of my listening life.  I've really come to appreciate the importance of good high quality bass as time has passed.  I really think there is sort of an overreaction in most audiophile circles to deemphasize bass in a quest for a 'neutral nirvana' that is just as unnatural to my ears as big bloated bass from a bad car subwoofer or an overly compressed and emphasized modern recording.  I think the pushback against modern tastes usually goes too far and overcompensates.

X2

 

 

[anomalouscode]

yeah bass is fundamental.
 
and its hard to get quality bass whether you're producing/engineering or making playback devices or designing instruments i would imagine.
 
an old pro i met the other day had me listen to a few string instruments he had and i commented on the bass quality,... he went on to say that people who understand music focus on the quality of bass because treble is relatively black and white, where as bass is much more complex.
 
which was nice to hear of course 

, to be honest though i was just being my usual basshead self 

.
 
but yeah those guys with silly subs in their cars, that kind of bass is like costco bass, 10c for 20 gallons 

 

[average_joe]

 
Quote:

^ substitute LCD-2 for sm3/em3pro and yeah i wouldnt have guessed he was talking about anything else.
 
I wonder which van halen record he's talking about,.... i need something "poorly recorded" as a reference, besides my own stuff 

I am actually somewhat impressed with some of the poor recordings that, while I can hear flaws, I can also hear some of the greatness with the SM3/EM3 Pro.  Just depends on what you are focused on. However, I do have some stuff that sounds like absolute crap no matter what!  As far as Van Halen, I always thought it sounded kinda good and spacious and the remastered albums are of course much better.
 
Quote:

i just had to say,...
 
for thunderous "real bass" as in real instrument as in kick drum bass and not synthetic dance type bass,..
 
simon phillips, seriously i never knew natural bass could sound as heavy or powerful.

I have been looking (well, listening) for real bass that rivals my synthetic bass and haven't really found anything.  I have enjoyed some real bass though with some good impact (don't have any Simon Phillips), but not the slamming, punching, visceral bass of some of my electronic stuff...
 
Quote:

I used to be a treble head for most of my listening life.  I've really come to appreciate the importance of good high quality bass as time has passed.  I really think there is sort of an overreaction in most audiophile circles to deemphasize bass in a quest for a 'neutral nirvana' that is just as unnatural to my ears as big bloated bass from a bad car subwoofer or an overly compressed and emphasized modern recording.  I think the pushback against modern tastes usually goes too far and overcompensates.

Man, this place is filled with treble heads! 

  For example, my experience with the RE0 has lead me to believe this place really does have a lot of people as you describe them...overcompensating.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, and maybe they heard more bass than I did from the RE0, but I think it emphasizes your point.  I love the EM3 Pro balance!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SoupRKnowva /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
i completely agree, i think that alot of audiophiles just want to be different than the norm, and since the average joe wants completely overdone bass, that they need to go bass light to be superior somehow. But i feel that bass is the foundation of all music, and without good, deep, tight, and powerful bass recordings sound week. but thats just my .02
 

Hey, I resent that as I only want my bass partially overdone!  But seriously, bass is the foundation for many genres, but I disagree that bass is all that important with some genres such as jazz, classic rock, vocal based pop (Emi Fujita, Jheena Lodwick, Susan Wong, etc.), etc. that really doesn't have much bass at all.  But give me my electronic where I demand bass kick!  I listen to all sorts of genres on random and the EM3 Pro has the ability to handle the multiple genres better overall than any other headphone I have heard.
 
Quote:

X2

Oh no, a cat invasion, where is my shoe

 
Quote:

yeah bass is fundamental.
 
and its hard to get quality bass whether you're producing/engineering or making playback devices or designing instruments i would imagine.
 
an old pro i met the other day had me listen to a few string instruments he had and i commented on the bass quality,... he went on to say that people who understand music focus on the quality of bass because treble is relatively black and white, where as bass is much more complex.
 
which was nice to hear of course 

, to be honest though i was just being my usual basshead self 

.
 
but yeah those guys with silly subs in their cars, that kind of bass is like costco bass, 10c for 20 gallons 

While treble may be black and white, there are so many headphones/IEMs that don't do it right as they have a peak accentuating some part of the spectrum or the wrong decay making the instruments sound unnatural.  I think the SM3/EM3 Pro excel at treble and it is a breath of fresh air for me.  Of course, the T1 also gets this right, but so many of the top-tier IEMs I have heard leave something to be desired.  Maybe that is where the RE0 love comes from, a lower cost IEM that does the treble quite well (but still not perfect).
 
Don't get me wrong, I do love the quality bass!

 

[anomalouscode]

a member over on gearslutz turned me on to simon phillips when i asked him about working with the JH13's he has. while he isnt currently active in the business, he mentioned that he uses simon phillips as a measurement of how well any system handles powerful quick bass.
 
the guy is mostly jazzy, but think coked up jazz drummer jazzy not stoned drummer jazzy, and he's done some electronic ambient stuff as well. 
 
I've got his vantage point album,... not that i would know really, but from listening with the em3's,... i think if you ever want to give your gear a work out then its perfect and well worth hunting down,... and it helps that the music is amazing too

 
i think it will rival the electronic stuff you hear in raw power,... but then you stop and think, and you realize that its nothing more than a kick drum mic-ed nicely instead of a sinewave put through a series of fx,... then the bass you hear takes on a truelly living/sentient quality,... hard to describe so i'll shut up cos that last sentance really doesnt make sense 

 
Edit: and this recommendation of simon phillips' stuff comes from a hip hop dubstep basshead, i love my pure sine wave subs 

 

[anomalouscode]

Just a couple pics,... apologies for the quality, all my hard earned cash has gone into sound and as such my photographic gear/skills have suffered,... pics take with my Nokia N95 8Gb:
 
as i mentioned earlier, i asked for the countersunk/recessed pins. Not sure if i had to or not but i did just to make sure.
 
the pictures make it look like it doesnt go that far in,... but its a really solid rigid fit, so i have no worries about it coming loose. its a biatch and a half to unplug as well.
 
i'm glad i asked for this cos i figured out that if i hook my fingers in by the memory wire and pull forward, they twist out really easily. putting them in and taking them off is as easy as universals if you ask me.
 
 

 

 

 

 
you will notice however, that the recess isnt molded but rather carved/drilled out. it would have been nice if it was molded as it would be really crystal clear, but not a biggie in my book.
 
there are a few blemishes here and there, its not 100% perfect, but then i got these for the sound and not how they look.
 
they feel really really solid which is something that i think makes up for some minor blemishes.
 
ummm what else,... 
 
i used them during a recording session yesterday, they isolate great and positioning mics while the musicians were playing was easy, they cut out soo much sound that all i heard was the signal.
 
i'm still learning them, so cant comment on how they are to mix with,... but i burned yesterday's recording without mixing and it came out sounding quite nice,... which has more to do with the recording chain than the em3's really. but yeah they rendered the space of the recording quite accurately, and yesterday's session was in a not so nice sounding room. since i could clearly hear the not so nice sounding room i knew exactly how close to position the mics to reduce the room sound, and yet not be too close as to make the signal too dry.
 
i like em alot 

 
kinda off topic: can anyone recommend any Japanese made AD/DA similar to the Benchmark DAC1 pre? 

 

[anomalouscode]

awww, i always seem to kill threads,...
 
well let me attempt to kill this one again 

 
i put these things to the mixing test a few times since the last time i posted, and the only conclusive thing i can say is that they are still changing, some 3 weeks after recieving them. not as much as the first week but they are still changing or my brain is learning them more.
 
as of a day or so ago, i'd say the HF stuff has opened up and i no longer have even the slightest hunger for more HF content on well recorded high quality stuff. 
 
on movies and tv that i've been watching, the sub bass of rumbles now comes in nice and clear, even on not so great conversion formats, but of course on HD stuff its crystal clear, like brain mounted subs.

 
some of the gear that i have has been described as muddy, but never really having great phones before i could never really tell and it always sounded fine to me,... eg i have an ultralite that i use for location recording, and the conversion has been described as muddy, and i can hear the mud now loud and well, muddy.
 
so i'm thinking of something like a dacport or perhaps a benchmark,.... arghh decisions, decisions!

 

[SoupRKnowva]

Quote:

awww, i always seem to kill threads,...
 
well let me attempt to kill this one again 

 
i put these things to the mixing test a few times since the last time i posted, and the only conclusive thing i can say is that they are still changing, some 3 weeks after recieving them. not as much as the first week but they are still changing or my brain is learning them more.
 
as of a day or so ago, i'd say the HF stuff has opened up and i no longer have even the slightest hunger for more HF content on well recorded high quality stuff. 
 
on movies and tv that i've been watching, the sub bass of rumbles now comes in nice and clear, even on not so great conversion formats, but of course on HD stuff its crystal clear, like brain mounted subs.

 
some of the gear that i have has been described as muddy, but never really having great phones before i could never really tell and it always sounded fine to me,... eg i have an ultralite that i use for location recording, and the conversion has been described as muddy, and i can hear the mud now loud and well, muddy.
 
so i'm thinking of something like a dacport or perhaps a benchmark,.... arghh decisions, decisions!

Its quite a bit cheaper than the dacport or the benchmark, but you might also want to check out the new uDac-2, HPA's got a impressions thread going, and he did a quick comparison with the dacport near the end of the thread.
 

 

[anomalouscode]

cheers for that souprknowva will check it out now.

 

[shigzeo]

I think the BASS argument FOR Earsonics' approach is that its linearity allows the music to stand pretty much 'as is'. ETY do this too, but then they rise the treble response pretty damn high to emulate the ear's own equalisation. Since the EM3Pro does not do this, you get even Stephen all over the map. To get more treble 'response', simply raise the volume a bit as the ear will hear treble (and bass) better in comparison to the entire spectrum with more volume. 
 
The argument against Earsonics' approach, of course, is that at low volumes, you don't get a 'natural' (read: emulating the ear's own equalisation patterns) bass and treble. I do and do not agree with this. The JH13Pro is another great custom, but it has both bass and treble exaggerated to some extreme. At low volumes, you don't really notice it - everything sounds freaking smooth and beautiful. But raise the volume and suddenly you realise that the bass really is bumped up quite a bit.
 
Both approaches are good; neither is wrong, but I'll have to admit that my low-level listening prefers the JH13pro in some areas. However, hearing the EM3Pro from any source is simply amazing. There is nothing to worry over: no loss of any frequency unless you are using a really weak source.

 

[Anaxilus]

Out of curiousity for you guys that have heard multiple high end customs.  How good is the low end extension w/ these BA customs?  The SM3 to me did not extend low enough so I'm curious if there's a limitation here.

 

[anomalouscode]

agree with shigzeo,... i've been listening louder for the past couple of weeks and everything is just right, where as at lower levels they are a bit darker. 
 
its odd, and completely the opposite of what i'm used to since i've always been told that gear is flatter at lower volumes, but i'm finding the opposite to be true with the em3's.
 
anaxilus, i havent tried other customs high or low, but compared to the SM3's the bass is thicker, fatter, and yet faster,.... more chunk,.... but again if its not there in the source then it simply wont come out. playing some dubstep the other night, the subs were gorgeous and well low. 30hz is reproduced easier than pie.
 
on a recording i did the other day, i could hear the low sub bass rummble of a garbage truck nice and clearly 

 unfortunately.
 
was the bass the only thing you didnt like about the sm3's?

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
was the bass the only thing you didnt like about the sm3's?

Mostly, and the soundstage was a bit unorthodox for my taste.  I like precise imaging but I like a traditional stage left to right.  I know you found them very accurate to the recording though.  There were other considerations like my MD's being incredibly close to the signature of the SM3 and having cost me $60 less w/ the bulletproof warranty to boot.  I liked the Jazz club/House of Blues type of presentation better.  I didn't enjoy fighting the SM3 to remove them but I loved the cable.  My intent originally was to convert them to a budget custom but realized they weren't a significant enough upgrade to warrant the project compared to getting other competitors at the $450-$500 price range.  Other than that I think they are a very good IEM.  I'm not surprised to see many former MD users include them in their stable.  

  They are both engaging and euphonic sounding IEMs.  I don't think it would be far off to say the MD is the dynamic driver version of the SM3 and the SM3 is the BA version of the MD.  Hope my drivel makes sense.       

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

I think the BASS argument FOR Earsonics' approach is that its linearity allows the music to stand pretty much 'as is'. ETY do this too, but then they rise the treble response pretty damn high to emulate the ear's own equalisation. Since the EM3Pro does not do this, you get even Stephen all over the map. To get more treble 'response', simply raise the volume a bit as the ear will hear treble (and bass) better in comparison to the entire spectrum with more volume. 
 
The argument against Earsonics' approach, of course, is that at low volumes, you don't get a 'natural' (read: emulating the ear's own equalisation patterns) bass and treble. I do and do not agree with this. The JH13Pro is another great custom, but it has both bass and treble exaggerated to some extreme. At low volumes, you don't really notice it - everything sounds freaking smooth and beautiful. But raise the volume and suddenly you realise that the bass really is bumped up quite a bit.
 
Both approaches are good; neither is wrong, but I'll have to admit that my low-level listening prefers the JH13pro in some areas. However, hearing the EM3Pro from any source is simply amazing. There is nothing to worry over: no loss of any frequency unless you are using a really weak source.

After weeks away (I moved to NY), my speaker and stax system were in a container crossing the Atlantic for 4 weeks! and my only companion was EarSonics.  Shortly, all I can say after spending such intimate and lonely moments with my EM3pro's, is that there is NO WAY the JH's made me feel this way about portable music reproduction, low or high volume. The EM3's are unquestionably the best earphones I know of. They have the perfect neutrality, ultra high definition liquid music, pure sophistication and complexity like a 30 year Laphroig. The JH's are just a very good beer.
 
Just a note, reporting back.....

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 They have the perfect neutrality, ultra high definition liquid music, pure sophistication and complexity like a 30 year Laphroig. The JH's are just a very good beer.
 

Ouch.  I'm a Lagavulin man myself.  Perhaps you need to try some better beers?  

 

[anomalouscode]

ooh tricky,...
 
i'm tempted to say that if it was mostly just the issue of the bass, the em3's have everything that you might feel is lacking from the sm3's,.... cos remember the em3's are older than the sm3's, making the sm3's a budget version of the em3's as opposed the em3's being a better sm3.
 
but since you mention you presentation preferences, i'm also tempted to say that you might want to look elsewhere.... the em3 presentation like the sm3 is unorthodox as far as how music is reproduced,.... on the other hand, unless you're in the nose bleed seats, and since PA systems are all mono, in a venue you're actually surrounded by the music, which is the point of a mono PA's. the sound originates from the speakers, but then bounces around all over the room before during and after you hear it.
 
so unlike speakers and orthodox presentation iems, earsonics puts you in the space of the recording, in the room and that's what you hear.
 
i think.
 
the next live show i go to i'll close my eyes and see how the sounds compare, .... maybe i'm just full of crap and trying to justify my expenditure 

 
but yeah, if you really dont like presentation, then these may not be for you? 
 
i think at this level of expenditure, you gotta pick one thing that is a deal killer and one thing that is the most important for you, balance out the two and make a decision whether to go for one or to cross it off your list.