[liamstrain]

XXX it is... so now I can make subconscious associations with the strip club down the street.
 
--
 
Prog Rock Man - You can treat each cable manufacturer independently - each has proposed a Property {XXX} - they may all be different... but regardless, the onus is on them to show us that that property has any effect whatsover. Not on us to track down every one and test for it to prove it does not. 
 
Honestly - half of these sound no different than claiming the extra stripe on my Adidas makes me run faster. Or the dielectric property of the cotton shoelaces...

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBSC /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I don't get why you are having such a big issue with this. 
 

 
Because I have issues when people spew a bunch of meaningless stuff that they don't understand in an attempt to impugn someone or something.
 
Quote:

Do you accept that copper grades exist?

 
Of course I do.
 
Quote:

Or are you trying to imply that all copper is the same?

 
When it comes to such things as wires and cables, you're pretty much just talking about C110 ETP copper and C101 OFHC copper. And as far as their electrical properties go, there's no meaningful difference between the two. Nor I might add have you or anyone else been able to demonstrate any meaningful difference between the two. You just spout nonsense like "crappy" and "Home Depot."
 
Quote:

From Paul at PS Audio:
 

Professor Atsumi Ohno began the study of the solidification of metals in the mid 1960's, and published his landmark book, Solidification; The Separation Theory and its Practical Applications, in 1984. In this book, Ohno describes his many theories and concepts regarding the processing and solidification of molten metals, and the resulting crystal structures. He goes on to describe his unique process for casting metals with virtually no crystal structure, the O.C.C. process. This concept was first conceived of in 1978, and utilizes heated molds in a continuous casting process. Eventually, international patents were granted for O.C.C. (Ohno Continuous Casting).

The copper produced by this method is small rods of O.C.C. pure copper, from which wire can be drawn and which can have Copper grains of over 700 ft in length.  A Japanese manufacturer is currently using this process and produces O.C.C. under the trade name PCOCC (Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting).

 
Whoop de doo.
 
Again, this adds absolutely nothing meaningful. Nowhere does it say anything as to what the actual problem is with regular ETP and OFHC copper wire that the Ohno process addresses. In other words, he's implying that it's some sort of cure, but he can't tell you what the disease is. It's just classic marketing gibberish. Attempting to make something meaningless seem meaningful to those who don't know any better.
 
Quote:

Incidentally, according to Paul they measure their cables with time-domain reflectometers.

 
Again, whoop de doo.
 
Sure, a TDR would come in handy for measuring cables. Measuring their length that is. Or for determining if there are any full or partial opens or shorts in the cable which would be useful for QC purposes.
 
But so what? What's this have anything to do with the topic of discussion?
 
se

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Nice editing job. Oh, and I love your Halloween costume!

 
se
 
 
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Curious, does anyone know of any tests between high-end cables and Monoprice type stuff done on TDRs? I don't recall seeing any.
 

 
No, because it's meaningless. All a TDR's going to tell you is what difference there is in their lengths or if there are any faults in the cables. Beyond simple QC, "TDR" is just a buzzword, which you seem to have quite the appetite for.
 
se
 

 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

XXX it is... so now I can make subconscious associations with the strip club down the street.
 
--
 
Prog Rock Man - You can treat each cable manufacturer independently - each has proposed a Property {XXX} - they may all be different... but regardless, the onus is on them to show us that that property has any effect whatsover. Not on us to track down every one and test for it to prove it does not. 
 
Honestly - half of these sound no different than claiming the extra stripe on my Adidas makes me run faster. Or the dielectric property of the cotton shoelaces...

But if I was to wait for the subjective side to look for evidence, if I was to wait for cable makers to show {XXXX} and how it directly relates to SQ, then I will die of old age not knowing the answer

 

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

... if I was to wait for cable makers to show {XXXX} and how it directly relates to SQ, then I will die of old age not knowing the answer

 

No. We already have a very good working answer. There is no statistically significant effect that has yet been demonstrated. I'm content with that, until someone shows me evidence to the contrary.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Here is more evidence that guitar cables do make a difference
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/563603/guitar-cables-evidence-that-they-do-make-a-difference-to-sound-quality
 
and yet that thread was virtually ignored and some responses were pathetic.
 
Here is even more evidence, this time a null test were there is a clear audible difference
 
http://web.mac.com/davewronski/audio/null.html
 
I accept that guitar cables make a difference. We do concentrate a bit too much on blind testing. There are two other ways of proving a cable will make a difference. One is showing a clear audible difference backed up by measurements (so that we know it is not placebo) and the other is Null testing.
 
Looks like it takes an objectivist to gather the necessary evidence and to have an open mind. If we had waited for subjectivists to gather any evidence, we would still be here next year.

The null test appears to be rather too simplistic. Far as I can see, he does nothing to account for simple differences in resistance. To do a proper null test you should at least trim resistance to achieve the greatest null.
 
But talking about guitar cables here is really rather silly. Guitar cables are fed from guitar pickups which, electrically speaking, are big-ass RLC resonant circuits. Y'ever see an impedance plot of a guitar pickup?
 
Here's an example:
 

 
se
 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

It was more of an excercise in showing the subjectivists how to gather evidence. They cannot be bothered, so I'll look for them instead.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

It was more of an excercise in showing the subjectivists how to gather evidence. They cannot be bothered, so I'll look for them instead.

Fair 'nuff.

 
se
 
 
 

 

[comperic2003]

 
Quote:

 Monster drilled a lot of dry wells until they struck oil with the Dr Dre headphones, which unsurprisingly sell to gullible morons.

Beats by Dre, High-Priced Audiophile Cables . . . tomato, tomahto.
 

 

[barleyguy]

Quote:

 

Beats by Dre, High-Priced Audiophile Cables . . . tomato, tomahto.
 

Nah.  It's an "us" versus a "them", which obviously makes it qualitatively different.
 
(Sarcasm))
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

You are in danger of making missing the point into an art form. There are indeed lots of different types of copper. They are in no way superior to the copper wire you can buy at Home Depot, assuming a sufficient gauge for the application. As far as audio cables are concerned, virtually* all copper is the same.

This is why I (and of course every high-end cable company) would disagree. If you look at the differences between Kimber 8PR and Kimber 8VS, the biggest one is the type of copper. The geometry is the same, and the insulator is the same. Yes 8VS is slightly larger, but according to Kimber resistance is the same for both - 0.021 Ohms. Capacitance is also nearly identical 742.0 pF @ 20 kHz vs. 744.0 pF. 8VS's inductance is lower, but I've never seen a cable skeptic accept that either L or C measurements have anything to do with sound anyway.
 
So.... why does 8VS sound better? I'd argue that "virtually" all copper is not the same at all, and that this has a very audible impact.
 

 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

I'd argue that "virtually" all copper is not the same at all, and that this has a very audible impact.

Sounds reasonable. Are you going to share your argument?
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Sounds reasonable. Are you going to share your argument?
 

That's it. If you take geometry and insulation out of the equation (and gauge is at least close enough not to matter) and you're just left with two different grades of copper, and the better grade sounds better....

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

That's it. If you take geometry and insulation out of the equation (and gauge is at least close enough not to matter) and you're just left with two different grades of copper, and the better grade sounds better....

OK... your assertion is made. Now show why (or evidence other than your statement that it actually does). Preferrably in a falsifiable, repeatable/objective way.