Do 'High-End' Audio cables matter?
Oct 31, 2011 at 4:39 PM Post #631 of 1,128
Quote:
No, not necessarily, the instigator isn't actually him, he is asserting that different types of copper sound different, and you are asserting that all types of copper sound the same.


We are requesting evidence for claims which aren't being backed with evidence. We aren't making any claims right now.
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM Post #632 of 1,128


Quote:
No, not necessarily, the instigator isn't actually him, he is asserting that different types of copper sound different, and you are asserting that all types of copper sound the same.
 
If all types of copper cost the same, I think you'd be more open-minded to his assertions.
 



No. I'm not asserting anything. I'm asking for evidence of his assertion, because to date - no evidence has been shown to indicate that there would be an audible difference. Asking for evidence of an assertion is not the same as positing the contrary position. I'm saying I will follow the evidence, but lacking positive evidence supporting his assertion, I will not accept it.
 
I say he is the instigator because he is the one making claims, without backing them up.
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 4:45 PM Post #633 of 1,128


Quote:
 


No, not necessarily, the instigator isn't actually him, he is asserting that different types of copper sound different, and you are asserting that all types of copper sound the same.
 
If all types of copper cost the same, I think you'd be more open-minded to his assertions.
 
 
It would be nice if someone with a microphone could record their speakers using 2 different cables and then upload the files so we can listen.
 
 




With Audio Diffmaker that I have linked Dave BSC to he can now do exactly that. Then with an open mind and interest in science he can post the results of his test so that all of us open mindedly can discuss the results.
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 4:57 PM Post #634 of 1,128
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 according to Paul they measure their cables with time-domain reflectometers.
 


What's that.
 
 
Quote:
 

Here is more evidence that guitar cables do make a difference
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/563603/guitar-cables-evidence-that-they-do-make-a-difference-to-sound-quality
 
and yet that thread was virtually ignored and some responses were pathetic.
 

 
I was actually joking when I linked that video, some dark shaman showing off his guitar skills and the differences sounded way too audible to just be a cable swtich, so I thought, and at the end of the video it says "the differences are tube amp!" or something...
 
the second time I watched it I realised he meant he thinks the differences become even more audible in a tube amp, and not just the digital PC software amp he was using in the video.
 
After watching more guitar cable A/B videos, I thought the differences were too large in all of them, not "subtle" at all, then after seeing your thread with the graphs showing the huge differences I become more convinced that guitar cables really do sound different, something I didn't believe when I used to play guitar and only used stock cables! =P
 
So much for all the "it's just electricity" cable hater comments.
 
 
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 5:03 PM Post #635 of 1,128
 
Quote:
Quote:
 
It would be nice if someone with a microphone could record their speakers using 2 different cables and then upload the files so we can listen.
 


With Audio Diffmaker that I have linked Dave BSC to he can now do exactly that. Then with an open mind and interest in science he can post the results of his test so that all of us open mindedly can discuss the results.
 


Sounds fine and dandy to me. :wink:
 
 
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 5:09 PM Post #636 of 1,128


Quote:
What's that.
 

the second time I watched it I realised he meant he thinks the differences become even more audible in a tube amp, and not just the digital PC software amp he was using in the video.
 
After watching more guitar cable A/B videos, I thought the differences were too large in all of them, not "subtle" at all, then after seeing your thread with the graphs showing the huge differences I become more convinced that guitar cables really do sound different, something I didn't believe when I used to play guitar and only used stock cables! =P
 
So much for all the "it's just electricity" cable hater comments.
 
 

 
 
It's sort of like an electronic sonar.
 
It sends out a pulse and displays any reflections that return.
 
So for example, if you ping an unterminated line, once the ping reaches the other end, it sees an open circuit and gets reflected back due to the impedance mismatch between the line and the termination.
 
It can also find points in a line where there's an impedance mismatch, such as a partial short or open.
 
And based on the return time of the reflections, it can tell you what the distance is away from the source.
 
It has no relevance at all to what we're discussing here.
 
se
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 5:14 PM Post #637 of 1,128
Quote:
So much for all the "it's just electricity" cable hater comments.


But it is all electricity. The reason guitar cables matter is because of how the equipment works. Steve Eddy mentions guitar pickups here. Check out those impedances. You don't see anything like that with audio reproduction, like headphones or speakers.
 
You keep jumping to wrong (and extreme) conclusions. Keep these two things in mind:
  1. Just because cables matter in one application does not mean they matter in all applications
  2. Just because cables don't matter in one application does not mean they don't matter in all applications
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM Post #638 of 1,128
 
Yes that's fine, let's accept then that guitar cables are different, and HDMI cables are all the same (even DaveBSC thinks so :wink:), and return back to the contention on speaker cables.
 
 
I think pure silver cables might attract more energy from the spirit world and this doesn't show up in microphones, it's just a sensation in the room itself, what do you think, Head Injury?
 
 
Nov 1, 2011 at 2:07 AM Post #641 of 1,128


Quote:
 
Yes that's fine, let's accept then that guitar cables are different, and HDMI cables are all the same (even DaveBSC thinks so :wink:), and return back to the contention on speaker cables.


With TVs yes, I absolutely agree. Provided the cable is shorter than the limitations of its construction in terms of signal degradation, they should all look identical and work equally well until they begin to fail. The failure length is different and dependent (presumably) on gauge and resistance. I should mention though that analog video cables do not work on a pass/fail metric. Can anyone point to measurement results between low and high-end component video cables? While the frequencies are different, CV cables are constructed identically to digital coaxial cables.
 
 
Nov 1, 2011 at 2:21 AM Post #642 of 1,128


Quote:
With TVs yes, I absolutely agree. Provided the cable is shorter than the limitations of its construction in terms of signal degradation, they should all look identical and work equally well until they begin to fail. The failure length is different and dependent (presumably) on gauge and resistance. I should mention though that analog video cables do not work on a pass/fail metric. Can anyone point to measurement results between low and high-end component video cables? While the frequencies are different, CV cables are constructed identically to digital coaxial cables.
 


I won't make any claims or take a position on audio cables for headphones but I'll go to town on anyone who says all S-video and Component cables render the same video.  You'd have to be blind to not notice the potential deviations depending on the subjects in question.
 
 
Nov 1, 2011 at 5:54 AM Post #643 of 1,128


Quote:
With TVs yes, I absolutely agree. Provided the cable is shorter than the limitations of its construction in terms of signal degradation, they should all look identical and work equally well until they begin to fail. The failure length is different and dependent (presumably) on gauge and resistance. I should mention though that analog video cables do not work on a pass/fail metric. Can anyone point to measurement results between low and high-end component video cables? While the frequencies are different, CV cables are constructed identically to digital coaxial cables.
 



Sorry, but do it yourself, you look for evidence for a change.
 
Nov 1, 2011 at 7:33 AM Post #644 of 1,128
I was able to find a test done a few years ago by PC World. I'll ignore the HDMI section, they confirmed what we've all already agreed upon, HDMI cables at typical distances don't matter. Unless it's so cheap that the connector falls off (which may happen) you get perfect video. This is what they wrote in their test of component video cables:
 
"We started by measuring characteristic impedance--the extent to which a cable hinders the flow of a signal. The standard impedance for each wire in a component-video cable is 75 ohms. If the impedance in any one wire is far off the mark, it produces an impedance mismatch with the devices it connects to; as a result, some of the signal may be lost in transmission, or it may bounce back along the cable to the source, producing smeared colors or blurriness in the picture's fine details.
 
Monster's M500CV was the winner here, as all three wires inside the cable varied within a negligible 1 ohm of 75 ohms. Translation: This cable imposes as little distortion as possible. Other cables didn't do as well. The three wires included in the CableWholesale.com cables hovered between 63 and 64 ohms, while the Kimber Kable's wires measured between 85 and 86 ohms. The AudioQuest's wires varied from about 71 to 75 ohms. And the StarTech.com's varied from about 67 to 69 ohms.
 
But here's the rub: Virtually every consumer component cable uses RCA-style jacks. Originally used for analog audio connections, RCA plugs have an impedance of about 50 ohms, creating unavoidable impedance mismatches at both ends of a cable. How well a cable manages the impedance at every point of the cable, not just at the connectors, affects its performance. But the impedance mismatch between a cable's wires and its RCA connectors has far more impact on performance than any other attribute.
 
We next calculated return loss, a measure of how much of the signal bounces back down the cable. According to the experts at Tektronix we consulted, 14 decibels is ideal. CableWholesale.com's product exhibited the least amount of signal bounce in our tests, at 13 decibels. The other four brands did worse (all at about 8 decibels). The Tektronix experts explained to us that practically all signal bounce is a result of the impedance mismatch between the wires and their RCA connectors.
 
We conducted one final test: Insertion loss, measured in decibels, gauges how much of the video signal gets lost as it runs through the cable. Four of the cables managed roughly equivalent performance. The worst performer in the group, the Kimber Kable V21, lost less than 2 decibels--an insignificant amount.
 
Working with an AccuPel HDG-3000 HD/SD/DVI Component Video Calibration Generator, we sent 720p test patterns through our cables to the Epson PowerLite 500 projector. None of the cables transmitted a perfect signal, but the imperfections were minor. In crosshatch patterns (a grid of fine horizontal and vertical lines), some lines displayed slightly smeared edges or shadows, rather than sharp pixel-for-pixel transitions from white to black. But we had to get within a foot of the screen to see any of this, and we saw the same problems regardless of which cable we used.
Another set of test screens displayed multiburst patterns, featuring several swaths of parallel vertical lines that get progressively finer from left to right. On every screen, the finest swath--where the lines were just a single pixel wide--looked blurry for each cable, indicating that even a good display might smear small details. The other swaths were sharp, with well-defined transitions, regardless of the cable.
 
Bottom Line: Though the analog cables varied slightly in our instrument tests, they did not produce distinguishable differences in transmitting real video content."
 
The conclusions I take from this are not really any different than what I've though previously about audio cables. Different digital coaxial cables will measure differently, just as these CV cables did. You're after 75 Ohms including the connectors, and you often don't get it. Just throwing money at any brand is no guarantee of results. The problem I have with their conclusions is that they judged generally by eyeballing it, and sorry but our eyes are just not very accurate. Now before anybody starts I KNOW how that sounds. This is aiming to be a scientific test though, and I would've preferred to see more instrumented results. There is extremely accurate equipment to measure things like light and color from a display, and unless I'm missing something those measurements weren't done.
 
Nov 1, 2011 at 10:15 AM Post #645 of 1,128


Quote:
The problem I have with their conclusions is that they judged generally by eyeballing it, and sorry but our eyes are just not very accurate. Now before anybody starts I KNOW how that sounds. 


:D
 
Indeed. And they don't have a good control - that is to say, they don't show that their Epson projector has the resolution to show those details at all, so they cannot say for sure that the cables are why it is blurring.
 
 
Quote:
This is aiming to be a scientific test though, and I would've preferred to see more instrumented results. There is extremely accurate equipment to measure things like light and color from a display, and unless I'm missing something those measurements weren't done.

 
Indeed. We have those tools for audio as well. This test - beyond the Ohm data, presents almost nothing useful. Much like many of the audio tests we've seen. 
 
 

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