Do 'High-End' Audio cables matter?
Oct 30, 2011 at 9:03 PM Post #571 of 1,128


Quote:
Of course professional reviewers don't like ABX tests. They may prove them biased. How's that going to go over with the readers?
 
Why would the differences lessen? Because they were the result of sighted bias in the first place. Nothing to do with training. The power of discrimination was never really there, they just believed it was because they were hearing differences that were the result of biases.
 


I have mentioned this previously, but there isn't any positive evidence that proves that the sighted results were skewed because of mechanisms of cognitive bias, only extrapolation from other research which shows a trend.  Having said this I find it very likely that cognitive bias plays a role in a significant proportion of sighted impressions, just it is impossible to positively prove which ones.
 
DaveBSC's point though is also valid - phenomena that should be easily discernable seem to magically vanish in blind test conditions, however to suggest this is because of prior cognitive bias is again not positively supported by evidence.  Personally I find it more likely that blind test conditions are in fact often confusing due to a lack of reference point - ie that under blind conditions the test candidates confuse themselves due to the lack of reference point.  One can easily stand on one leg with your eyes open, but blindfolded candidates will tend to fall because their usual mechanisms of balance have been removed.  Blind testing where the subject has no visual reference, even an abstract one such as red and blue, A or B is depriving the subjects of any method of grounding their observations.  For the mp3 bitrate test I took, I the samples were given abstract labels, so I was able to organise my observations and build up to a decision.  If the samples were instead presented as a blind sequence, I would have definitely failed.
 
The second notable point is that DaveBSC's quote shows that very large changes can go undetected under some blind conditions, my own experience with mp3 bitrate where it took me dozens of attempts to consistently achieve good results (like above 75%) also shows how readily small changes can pass under the radar.  Now I also know of blind tests were participants were able to switch between cables at their own leisure, in their own houses, which does not prove that their are no differences in performance, just that the differences in that test were too small to be detected by the test participants in the test conditions - and from separate quantified testing shown to be of a very small magnitude.  From these two points you can conclude that you are not missing out on very much by not having high end cables, or anything else for that matter that doesn't measure significantly differently or pass blind testing.
 
Personally though I trust my sighted impressions, even though they are prone to bias.  I would probably like to do blind testing of the cables I have on hand, and may do so if I manage to get hold of someone willing to be filmed swapping out the cables, but reasonably cannot expect to do this with every piece of equipment I audition or try out in my system, it is just way too time consuming when frankly I listen to my system sighted anyway.
 
By the way found that link to the dt880 damping factor test - interesting read.  Still not sure if it means that amplifier with very low output impedance or 8 wire cables are a sure way to improve orthodynamic bass response.
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 9:10 PM Post #572 of 1,128
I was under the impression that there usually is a visual stimulus of some kind to denote whether A or B or X is being listened to at a given time. There's nothing about the ABX test that requires literal blindness.
 
To me, the fact that you were unable to tell MP3s apart at first doesn't mean that blind testing obscures subtleties, but that the differences are very subtle to begin with.
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 9:16 PM Post #573 of 1,128


Quote:
Personally though I trust my sighted impressions, even though they are prone to bias.  I would probably like to do blind testing of the cables I have on hand, and may do so if I manage to get hold of someone willing to be filmed swapping out the cables, but reasonably cannot expect to do this with every piece of equipment I audition or try out in my system, it is just way too time consuming when frankly I listen to my system sighted anyway.
 


One test that I think I'll do when my KGSSHV is finished is an ABX test between two different productions of one of my favorite albums - Oscar Peterson's We Get Requests. I have both the SHM-CD, and the JVC K2 CD. They are very close, but when I know which one is playing, I always prefer the SHM-CD version. I'm pretty sure Foobar has an ABX plug-in, so I'm curious if with my KGSSHV and Omega 2, whether I'll fail an ABX test or be able to reliably tell which is which.
 
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 9:49 PM Post #575 of 1,128
 
Quote:
 
A blind test of speakers
 
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_spk.htm
 

 
Ahahahah http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
 
 
Ok so in the first test they were using Etymotic ER-4's from the headphone jack of some amazing amplifier, and switched around the RCA cables leading to the amplifier with "$2.50 blister pack" and "PSACS best".
 
I look up "PSACS wire" "PSACS cable" on google and all I can find is "Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference" and "Pacific Sea Air Cargo Service" and some other stuff, nothing relating to cables, I spent a good 10 minutes looking!
 
So the test compared some unknown fancy sounding non-existent cable with a $2.50 cable, they didn't mention the material composition of the cable, and they were only testing the RCA interconnects, the wire in the ER-4 remained the same, all in all a completely useless test AFAI'MC.
 
 
Second test "Type T1 cables"
 
Third test "Type Z speaker cable"
 
Fourth test "Type T2 ($990) cable"
 
 
I don't care if "he chose his own program material and had no time limit", what is the use of tests like these if they don't even mention the material composition of the cables themselves? Even if they are writing "Type Z" so as not to flame a specifc company, they should at least go into fine detail about the cables they are testing, and not just "Type Z".
 
All they have proved is that expensive cables were not discernable from the cheap cables in a blind ABX test, so what? Simply proving expensive cable X and cheap cable Y sound the same doesn't prove anything other than the cable market is overpriced, and we already know that.
 
Maybe the current "cable rage" is mostly about the price and your average joe getting ripped off by salesmen every single day in every city in the world selling $200 HDMI cables, and yes perhaps that is some kind of thievery and that is happening with usless RCA, composite, component and gold-plated carbon-fiber USB cables bla bla bla, but imho this thievery has become intertwined a bit with the legit discussion of speaker and IEM cables.
 
My question remains what is the difference in sound concerning pure lead, pure copper and pure silver, and if there is a possibility that there are indeed high-end cables made out of 'pure lead' or some equally 'weak' material, that is objectively lessening to the sound quality, however the cables look really nice and are expensive so the customer is easily persuaded that the true difference in sound quality perceived is an improvement.
 
When I was blind ABXing different sample rates and experimenting with them I would resample and duplicate the same song into 22.05kHz, 44.1kHz and 192kHz, on one occasion I accidentally selected the 22.05kHz track thinking I'd selected the 192kHz track, not realising my mistake naturally I was only looking for improvements in sound, so I thought "Hey, the percussion sounds so... raspy and... visceral... this is easy!" then naturally I realised I was listening to the 22.05kHz track "Oh, NVM.." and continued looking for the subtle differences in the 44.1kHz and 192kHz tracks.
 
My point is, if someone sold me a cable that 'resamples to 22kHz', with enough marketing, shiny crystals and nice aesthetics, then on my first listening to the raspy and visceral percussion I'd most likely think "Ah I can actually hear the difference, it's more 'analog' sounding now, it's more 'real' like a cassette tape" etc. etc. hahaha.
 
The second issue is that now (with lots of listening) I can tell apart 44.1kHz and 192kHz upsampling much faster and easier than the first time I ever tried, when I don't think I could hear hardly anything at all.
 
If a blind ABX test was conducted with my setup and 20 random people off the street they'd all fail at hearing the upsampling since they didn't have any listening practice / experience at all, so the results would be just like flipping a coin, however a rather useless test to start off with anyway!
 
My perception is there's quite a few of these "useless tests".
 
 
By the way in another thread recently some studio sound wizard cable hater kept telling me "sound is only air, us studio people understand it 100%, you don't" and "If cables made a difference, why would all recording studios use pure copper Mogami and Canare? We spend thousands on a single microphone! I think if cables made a difference, we would like to know! LOL!!!" and he kept talking like that.
 
I don't think studios care about the potential fine nuances of difference in their speakers and headphones if they used a silver cable, when the performer is right in front of them? After all if they are using a $10,000 microphone and a Sony MDR-V6 why would they even care about a silver cable, when they don't even care about the MDR-7520?
 
Anyway I spent a while lookin for this scroll down on the left side, there they mention the cables used in their studio, so some do seem to select higher grade cables, it seems http://www.channelclassics.com/high-resolution-audio-downloads/dijkstra-31411.html
 
I'm not implying they can hear the difference, I'm just pointing this out, for example it could just be a "peace of mind" alteration to their system, or they want pretty cables, or they can hear it, who knows, send them an email. =P
 
 
I am leaning towards that it's "just electricity" and lead could sound the same as silver, but the explanations why and the tests I can find aren't very convincing or fulfilling.
 
Why can't someone just compare a pure lead and pure silver speaker cable in some high-end speakers in front of people, and compare a $1 and $200 HDMI cable on a nice plasma, and put it on youtube?!
 
OR why can't someone record their speakers or headphone with copper versus silver, and then upload the two files so we can listen?
 
Oh wait, I just looked on youtube, it exists, thanks Marco Angelo, the difference is night and day! you saved me! (this was the best I could find)
 
 

 
 
Edit: Skip to 1:31... this is the proof you have all been waiting for! :wink:
 
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 10:05 PM Post #576 of 1,128
Quote:
 
Ahahahah http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
 
 
Ok so in the first test they were using Etymotic ER-4's from the headphone jack of some amazing amplifier, and switched around the RCA cables leading to the amplifier with "$2.50 blister pack" and "PSACS best".
 
I look up "PSACS wire" "PSACS cable" on google and all I can find is "Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference" and "Pacific Sea Air Cargo Service" and some other stuff, nothing relating to cables, I spent a good 10 minutes looking!
 
So the test compared some unknown fancy sounding non-existent cable with a $2.50 cable, they didn't mention the material composition of the cable, and they were only testing the RCA interconnects, the wire in the ER-4 remained the same, all in all a completely useless test AFAI'MC.


Ten minutes looking? Maybe you should have looked lower on the page?
 
 
In the first test, five specialty interconnects from AudioQuest, MIT, Monster Cable, H.E.A.R., plus Belden cable with Vampire connectors were compared to a $2.50 blister pack RCA phono interconnect. Listeners used Etymotic Research ER4 in-ear phones driven by the headphone jack of a Bryston 2B power amplifier.

 
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 10:25 PM Post #577 of 1,128
 
Oh damn haha, anyway it's just an RCA cable not very interesting, and using cables from "Monster" and "Vampire" isn't proving anything other than $2.50 cables can't be ABX'd to more expensive ones with fancy brand names.
 
Same thing in the Nick Charles test, a bunch of different fancy cables, all copper... except one, silver-plated.
 
A lot happens to a signal after it's travelled along an RCA into an amplifier, it's the last cable that's interesting, not really the power cable or amp interconnects, imho.
 
 
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 10:31 PM Post #578 of 1,128
What is it about Monster cables that make them just "more expensive ones with fancy brand names", that sets them apart from "audiophile" companies that make cables?
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 10:45 PM Post #579 of 1,128


Quote:
What is it about Monster cables that make them just "more expensive ones with fancy brand names", that sets them apart from "audiophile" companies that make cables?


Monster uses the same cheap stranded crap that's in Monoprice cables. The difference is that Monoprice is honest about what they are selling. Mogami wire is not expensive at all, and its MUCH higher quality than Monster. Everybody knows who Noel Lee is and what he represents. They've tried to sell to "real" audiophiles rather than gullible Best Buy customers in the past with their Sigma Retro series. I don't think they were successful. Same with their speakers and amplifiers. I'm also surprised they weren't sued by Mazda for that logo, they certainly deserve it.  Monster drilled a lot of dry wells until they struck oil with the Dr Dre headphones, which unsurprisingly sell to gullible morons.
 

 
Oct 30, 2011 at 10:51 PM Post #580 of 1,128
Quote:
Monster uses the same cheap stranded crap that's in Monoprice cables. The difference is that Monoprice is honest about what they are selling. Mogami wire is not expensive at all, and its MUCH higher quality than Monster. Everybody knows who Noel Lee is and what he represents. They've tried to sell to "real" audiophiles rather than gullible Best Buy customers in the past with their Sigma Retro series. I don't think they were successful. Same with their speakers and amplifiers. I'm also surprised they weren't sued by Mazda for that logo, they certainly deserve it.  Monster drilled a lot of dry wells until they struck oil with the Dr Dre headphones, which unsurprisingly sell to gullible morons.


But what does the stranded wire not do, that audiophile wire does? What makes it cheap, just the cost to the manufacturer?
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 11:08 PM Post #581 of 1,128
Monster make cables for home theatre equipment, they make a toslink look nice and thick and supple in navy blue or hot pink, so the customer shells out more cash for the nicer looking cable.  When they get home they run to their PS3, connect it to their stereo with their new toslink salami, and it sounds fantastic, story finished!  In truth, the customer didn't know (an will never know) a $6 toslink would have sounded just as good.
 
Pure silver cables, OCC copper, types of quad/hexa-braiding, hybrid tin/lead/silver whatever cables connected to speakers and IEM's should (in theory) have (or not have) affect on the sound quality of said speaker or IEM.
 
These are two seperate instances.
 
 
Since electric guitarists can very easily A/B any cable and seem happy to shell out a bit more, maybe shielding matters too, or the transmission there is different, I dunno, or maybe every youtube video showing a difference between electric guitar cables is just a trick too, this is the annoying part, it's just too hard to find any conclusive evidence anywhere. =(
 
/offline
 
Oct 30, 2011 at 11:15 PM Post #582 of 1,128


Quote:
Monster uses the same cheap stranded crap that's in Monoprice cables.

 
There you go with the "crap" again.
 
Why don't you refrain from using that word until you can provide a meaningful answer to the question I put to you some time back? I mean, until you can, your use of the term "crap" is utterly meaningless.
 
Quote:
Mogami wire is not expensive at all, and its MUCH higher quality than Monster.

 
What exactly makes it MUCH higher quality?
 
se
 
 
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 12:43 AM Post #583 of 1,128


Quote:
But what does the stranded wire not do, that audiophile wire does? What makes it cheap, just the cost to the manufacturer?


It's low quality wire, in low quality insulation, with low quality connectors. Noel Lee can buy his Ferraris because his markups are enormous. Best Buy makes very little money selling TVs. They make their money by selling $100 Monster HDMI cables, and Monster makes their money by charging Best Buy a fortune. Apple's profit margin on the iPhone 4S is about 3 to 1. Monster's margins are probably 10 to 1, if not more.
 
 
Oct 31, 2011 at 12:51 AM Post #585 of 1,128


Quote:
 
What exactly makes it MUCH higher quality?


Mogami wires seem to sound better than the basic stuff from Belden or Carol or Canare. Of the brands that produce huge rolls of professional use type wire, theirs is the best. I'm not sure why, whether it's better copper or what, but it is. Monster is just big neon pink insulation over the same level of copper that you can buy at Home Depot.
 
 

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