[TheObjectivist]

evening gents,
 
Its my first experience with headphones and i'm a bit perplexed. Reviews found on Headfi claim the Denon D5000s can produce respectable sound yet I feel they sound awful. I purchased a pair ~2 weeks ago and have given them a good 15 hours of break in and am still dismayed. 
 
I believe that I may need to upgrade my equipment to get the sound I had hoped for, but i'm not sure what needs to be improved.
 
 
 
My computer is the sole source of music fed to the the denons.  I only use wma lossless and flac files from zune or foobar, and have them plugged directly into the "front" output on an Auzentech X-meridian (gen 1) card.
 
 
Problems with the sound: 
1. there is little detail, and the amount present is covered in"mud"
2. as I listen, I feel no emotion. Its as if i'm hearing sound, but..... who cares? Its just noise
3. the top of the notes sound metallic and there is too much sibilance. The pronounced "ssss" drives me insane
4. i feel pain as if its playing notes too high with nothing in the middle to balance, followed by a massacre of bass 
 
 
Questions:
1. is my gear bad? Am i forced to lose the sound card and get an amp/dac combo?
2. is it possible that these d5000s simply arent very good? 
3. have i been accustomed to home hifi and cant adjust to headphones?
4. must i allow a longer break-in period?
 
 
 
I have been forced to work in the bay area for a while so I have nothing to listen too except these damn headphones. I dont have my audio equipment to plug trhe phones into to see if they would do a better job.
 
If i'm stuck here for at least 6months in an apartment, then I want to have something respectable to listen to.  
 
 
 
Specs of the sound card: 
 
C-media oxygen CMI8788 audio processor
4 24bit DACS AK4396VF for 7.1 playback
 
 
for some reason, i cant post links or specs about the card. 
 
Let me know if anyone has suggestions,
 
cheers,
 
Brian
 

 

[joelpearce]

When you use the front audio connector on the soundcard, you are sending the wire through your case, which is full of electromagnetic noise.  Those connections are always pretty terrible.  Have you tried connecting it directly to the stereo out on the card to see if that makes a difference?
 
What you're describing is pretty much exactly what I've heard every time I've used that kind of connector at the front of a computer case.  I've not heard the D5000 personally, but I am confident in saying that you might not like the sound from it, but it should never sound THAT bad out of a proper source.
 
One other question: are you playing really low bitrate or poorly mastered files?  Sometimes good headphones will bring out problems in the source that you don't here at other times.

 

[tdockweiler]

Some may think I'm crazy, but based on my experience the D2000 (and D5000 probably) sound only good to my ears with a full desktop amp.
 
In early 2010 I had the D2000 and in one of my posts here complained they had recessed mids, bloated bass and sounded terrible. In late 2010 I gave them another chance when I had a full desktop amp and loved them. They actually had very well controlled bass and the mids didn't sound too recessed at all?! SOMEHOW the signature sounded quite balanced!
 
A few days after I listened to my D2000 in late 2010 I took them downstairs and listened to them on my computer with no amp. I was basically disgusted and my reaction was like "What happened?!". I took them back to my desktop amp and everything was back to normal.
 
For whatever reason, these seem to love full desktop amps. I had to return mine unfortunately. It's long story.
 
The soundcard could make them sound bad, but it's hard to tell. You could try a better one, but I myself would try a dac that.
 
A desktop amp is probably not a bad idea. I wish I had done that much sooner. At first it felt about as fun as buying a new power supply for my computer.
 
I'm sure the $129 E9 would do the job.

 

[TheObjectivist]

Quote:

When you use the front audio connector on the soundcard, you are sending the wire through your case, which is full of electromagnetic noise.  Those connections are always pretty terrible.  Have you tried connecting it directly to the stereo out on the card to see if that makes a difference?
 
What you're describing is pretty much exactly what I've heard every time I've used that kind of connector at the front of a computer case.  I've not heard the D5000 personally, but I am confident in saying that you might not like the sound from it, but it should never sound THAT bad out of a proper source.
 
One other question: are you playing really low bitrate or poorly mastered files?  Sometimes good headphones will bring out problems in the source that you don't here at other times.

Let me clarify: there are a few plugs on the sound card for all of the channels. front, side rear etc. I plugged the headphones into the "front" output, so its a direct shot into the soundcard. Interesting what you said though. ~2 inched from the soundcard there is a very large video card that takes up two bays. Perhaps it is throwing noise into the card/system...?
 
the files i am using come from ripped, original CDs at the highest bitrate and flac files I torrent. Both formats sound comparable.
And yes, I really dont care for the d5000 sound. Even if the bass was tamed, there simply isnt any mid range.
 


Quote:

Some may think I'm crazy, but based on my experience the D2000 (and D5000 probably) sound only good to my ears with a full desktop amp.
 
In early 2010 I had the D2000 and in one of my posts here complained they had recessed mids, bloated bass and sounded terrible. In late 2010 I gave them another chance when I had a full desktop amp and loved them. They actually had very well controlled bass and the mids didn't sound too recessed at all?! SOMEHOW the signature sounded quite balanced!
 
A few days after I listened to my D2000 in late 2010 I took them downstairs and listened to them on my computer with no amp. I was basically disgusted and my reaction was like "What happened?!". I took them back to my desktop amp and everything was back to normal.
 
For whatever reason, these seem to love full desktop amps. I had to return mine unfortunately. It's long story.
 
The soundcard could make them sound bad, but it's hard to tell. You could try a better one, but I myself would try a dac that.
 
A desktop amp is probably not a bad idea. I wish I had done that much sooner. At first it felt about as fun as buying a new power supply for my computer.
 
I'm sure the $129 E9 would do the job.
 
 

 
Your description fits my assessment perfectly.I am hoping that an amp is my problem. However, i dont want to take the chance of buying an amp only to realize that the dac needs to be upgraded. I wouldnt have a way to return the amp.
 
And of course, where can i find amp with a dac that runs 25ohm cans correctly? I have to say, that I am not really into headphones and dont want to get carried away. I would spend MAX $350 on a dac/amp
 
That E9 you mentioned, it works well with low impedance phones?
 
 
 
 
Final question: how likely is it that the soundcard is a problem?
 

 

[ajreynol]

plug it into your smartphone if you have one (directly) and play some mp3's.  if it sounds like crap there too, you just don't like the cans.  they may be too bassy for you.

 

[Jay_booney]

I have the Denon D2000, which I have re-cabled and modded as per "markl". I love them and I use an Asus Xonar PCI-E sound card in my PC. I plug them directly into the 1/4" jack on the sound card and use either FLAC or when necessary 320kbps mp3. They do have a heavy bass but the mids and highs do not really suffer. I have also tried them with the Graham Slee voyager headphone amp but there was only a slight difference, so I sold it.... The Asus Xonar does have burr brown DAC and some decent opamps on the amplifier so maybe you just need a better source? However, you should keep in mind that the most drastic change in audio is presented by a change in headphones. Changing the amp/cd player/source will bring (relatively) minor benefits.
 
Maybe the cans are just not to your liking.

 

[plonter]

sibilance and weak bass response is a strong sign of unadiquate amplification from my experience. and also from my experience the D5000 really need a good amp to sound how they should.  probably it's because of their low impedance.     they sound sibilance and absolutely lifeless from portable sources and even some audiophile cd players, like my marantz cd5001 which is not good with low impedance headphones (but sound awsome with high impedance ones

).         

 

[ktsai1283]

No, I don't think your sound card is the weak link.
 
Have you tried connecting other headphones or earbuds into your sound card?  Do you have a phone or music player with which you can test your pair with?
 
Chances are you got a pair of defective headphones.  I've heard many different headphones and earbuds in my life from ones you can get for free to ones costing hundreds of dollars and I have never heard one that I would describe as "atrocious"; at worst, maybe "pretty bad".  In fact, I rarely even read such strong words describing headphones here on Head-Fi.  Are there any D5000 fakes out in the wild?  Seems like your best bet is to just return it.
 
Maybe there is some electromagnetic interference (is this right?  I'm no physicist...) between your sound card and video card.  Does your motherboard have a VGA/DVI/HDMI/DP connector?  You can try taking out your video card to see if that fixes anything.

 

[shipsupt]

 

Since you are "stuck" in the Bay Area why don't you come out to our meet this month! See my signature for details. You can hear plenty of sources and amps on your Denon's and make sure they are working ok. You can also audition some other brands to see if there is something more to your liking. There will be plenty there youll never be able to try in a retail store.

As for your concern about finding and amp for Denon's... Not a problem, there are lots of great amps from cheap to spendy. Do a search and you'll find lots of information.

Hope to see you at the meet. Don't give up on those cans yet!

 

[idletime1213]

It might be a bad synergy or underamplification, but I also suspect that properly amplified, you might not like the Denon sound. The D7000 I tried, I dislied (out of a becnhmark DAC1), due to the sibilant treble and recessed mids.

 

[pp312]

"3. the top of the notes sound metallic and there is too much sibilance. The pronounced "ssss" drives me insane
4. i feel pain as if its playing notes too high with nothing in the middle to balance, followed by a massacre of bass"
 
 
Haven't heard the 5000, only the 2000, but it seems the OP has described the sound as those who don't care for the "smiley" FR usually describe it. I don't see an amp fixing this, just a change of headphones to something more balanced. Dare I suggest an HD650? Certainly seems like that's what he's craving. 
 
I really like the phrase "a massacre of bass". So gory.  

 

[Mdraluck23]

Quote:

Since you are "stuck" in the Bay Area why don't you come out to our meet this month! See my signature for details. You can hear plenty of sources and amps on your Denon's and make sure they are working ok. You can also audition some other brands to see if there is something more to your liking. There will be plenty there youll never be able to try in a retail store.

X2!

 

[shipsupt]

"3. the top of the notes sound metallic and there is too much sibilance. The pronounced "ssss" drives me insane


4. i feel pain as if its playing notes too high with nothing in the middle to balance, followed by a massacre of bass"


 


 


Haven't heard the 5000, only the 2000, but it seems the OP has described the sound as those who don't care for the "smiley" FR usually describe it. I don't see an amp fixing this, just a change of headphones to something more balanced. Dare I suggest an HD650? Certainly seems like that's what he's craving. 


 


I really like the phrase "a massacre of bass". So gory.  

 


I agree an amp is not going to change much... But could they be as bad as he's saying without there being some problem? I mean, I get that the denon sound is not for everyone... But even those that I've seen who are highly critical and prefer the complete opposite spectrum don't seem to have this sort of extreme reaction. Most who really disliked the sound still seemed to get what denon was after and some minor good to pass on. Just wondering if the sound is "that" bad maybe there is something up with this set or his current source/amp? Maybe not...

 

[b0wl1ng]

They require 100s more hours of burn in to open up in all there glory, extreme patience needed with these beauties,you are correct though, they are sibilant and the mids are recessed until well over the 400+ mark.
Once full burn in has been achieved they are a wonderful set of headphones, in my experience of owning many sets of cans,no other needs as much burn in time.  

 

[pp312]

"Just wondering if the sound is "that" bad maybe there is something up with this set or his current source/amp? Maybe not..."
 
People often say that but there's effectively nil chance of the headphones being faulty (both cups?) and he would have to be using a $30 Chinese ipod as source/amp for such an extreme reaction. In any case I've had such reactions with phones like the DT880 and AT AD700/900; it's just that my idea of what music should sound like is so completely different.