[Nomax]

Meze Elite is my #1

I was already afraid that the answer would be.......

NOMAX

PS.P

 

[DarginMahkum]

Wow, what an amazing accordion sound through Expanse!

 

[Somatic]

First Impressions / Mini Review
It's now about a week since I received the DCA Expanse.
This is my first headphone from DCA.

Unpacking:
Even though Dan mentioned in an interview that one of the measures they had to take during Covid to keep the selling price unchanged, was to make the packaging simpler, I must say it still feels very good. That engraved logo on the Case feels and looks nice.
In the outer packaging one can find the travel case, which is a lot smaller than I expected prior to receiving them. They can be stored in a really compact way. Something I didn't know I valued this much until I had it.
The stock cable also looks and feels quite good, I'd even go as far as saying it's the best stock cable I've seen to this day. However it's still a little microphonic which might be a "no go" for some (I also ordered adapters to use my Norne cables instead, but all my impressions have been with stock cable)

Comfort is excellent on these, the earpads feel amazing. Unfortunately they are glued and after a few years they have to be sent in for replacement. I think that the glue was required for the seal, which is much more important on the Expanse than on many other open headphones.
I must confess, it never took me as long as with the Expanse to grasp the sound signature.
At first the felt muffled and narrow. This changed over time, but a lot of this can be attributed to brain burn in and getting used to the sound signature.

So how do they actually sound?
They are called Expanse, and this might set you up for for dissappointment if you seek an expansive experience.
The soundstage even after burn in and getting used to is still on the smaller side, they are nowhere near as Expansive as a Meze Elite for instance. And I'd even consider this a clear weakness compared to its piers - IF you consider Soundstage size very important.
They have a lot of other qualities to make up for it.

The Bass is very strong. Not only Harman strong but beyond that. They have great Bass in quantity and quality. Most headphones with that amount of Bass would feel bloated but the AMTS does it's magic and you receive a lot of very clean non bloated Bass. My Basshead heart loves the performance and if you love Bass give them a try!

The mids have great texture and detail. They sound very realistic and lifelike. They have an impressive weight to them even on low volume, which is something I didn't hear in that fashion on other headphones before. Thick but super detailed usually two things that you don't get both at the same time.

The treble is there, they are not dark by any means.(well better don't quote me on that, all my headphones are usually on the warmer/darker side...) They have a lot of energy in the treble especially in the presence region. However they are lacking in the air frequencies which results in that comparatively narrow soundstage. This will be a matter of taste, some prefer it this way, some prefer the more accentuated way most other headphones handle the air region. The treble is completely non fatiguing, if you're treble sensitive give them a go. They have energy up top but not in an tiring way.

Details are plentiful, however the overall signature is very balanced, so details are not emphasized like on the Solitaire P for instance. However when A/B-ing between them you can clearly hear all the detail that was also present on the other headphone.

Overall they offer a very detailed meaty sound with a balanced non fatiguing signature.
They now rank #2 in my collection and I am certainly a DCA Fan now.
Dans opinion on many subjects regarding sound and tuning is very relateable and I'm looking forward to what he will develop in the future.
I'd love to get an electrostat that includes all the new inventions of stealth and expanse.

On different note:
Club DCA is a great program, I wish other companies would adopt that as well. At 15% discount, if you're in the US, the Expanse retails for 3400$. I seriously don't think that you can get anything better than that, at this price.
If you're in the EU without Club DCA, things might look different ... they are still worth an audition though.

Which is you #1?

 

[HONEYBOY]

Which is you #1?

He said it a couple times already actually. The Meze Elite

 

[Somatic]

He said it a couple times already actually. The Meze Elite

Thanks Honeyboy. Sorry I don't follow all of ThanatosVI messages. Therefore the question.

Edit: Seems he just recently answered this, haha

 

[Somatic]

Anyone looking to trade Solitaire P for an Expanse? PM if interested. I'm assuming some of you that really liked the Stealth might not be jiving with the Expanse 100%.

 

[Somatic]

Is this the best psycho acoustic security blanket out of all mid tier/summit fi? I need consoling from my weary soul. Treble centric cans are not the best partners at times ...

 

[mrspeakers]

Some great discussion over the weekend, thanks to everyone for sharing their impressions. It's not a surprise to me some prefer the Stealth tonality while others prefer Expanse. We tried to get the tonality VERY close but with a specific difference, as I discussed in the video, and that difference is Expanse is +2-2.5dB vs Stealth from 100-250Hz. As I explained in the video this is because to my ears, the Stealth/default Harman bass response is slightly recessed in this region, and as a bass player I can hear the decrease in intensity of the notes. Now, the flip side is that perceptually adding energy in this region adds weight to the bass which naturally decreases the relative perception of the highs.

As Nomax noted, we DO NOT recommend adjusting the highs because that will make the mids sound shrill. In fact I think I mentioned this in the video with Jude for just this reason: to adjust the Expanse tonality to get closer to Stealth PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, -2.5dB. Conversely to make Stealth sound closer to Expanse, PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, +2.5dB. I'll post this up front as well.

In our experience during testing and from discussion with customers probably 75% prefer Expanse outright, 25% prefer Stealth tonality. For PEQ some prefer to use it by album, while a few will leave it on most of the time. Content and how loud you listen are also considerations, Expanse's bass will hold up better at lower levels.

The nice thing is that with the design as-is people only need to make one PEQ adjustment so they can have their cake and eat it too.

No, but I've heard reducing the mid-bass with EQ can make them sound more like the Stealth and help with some of the soundstage imaging. I haven't tried it yet, but I had another user PM me their EQ after they were "finally!" able to illuminate the stage a bit with those EQ settings. That option is there, if you're into EQ'ing.

One of the things I liked about the Stealth (and was hoping for with the Expanse) was the perfect-EQ already built in and not needing any tweaks.

Not recommended to adjust treble, it will make female vocals and strings edgy and bright.

Interesting. I have both of them infront of me right now. For me main difference is not the treble, but the lows. I have been experimenting with EQ and frequency sweeping and the largest difference comes from tweaking the 100 200 Hz region. The image of Expanse is slightly further away compared to Stealth, also making a difference. As said before, I also tested with tone sweeping and the lower treble was not very different. I used this:

https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

I tried increasing the 10 kHz+ range and anything more than a +2 dB shelf made it unnaturally hissy.

I think the main "problem" was the total and unnecessarily loud compalint about the lack of punch, kick etc. whatever you call it. I still think Stealth is the perfect tuning for me but apparently some people prefer that slight warmth over a razer sharp mids focus.

Exactly. The main difference is a narrow band in the bass and this changes the imaging from pinpoint to "volume in space," this is what I referenced in the video.

People have different preferences/priorities in bass and in perception of imaging and soundstage; we offer a choice and also the tuning to make either headphone sound much closer to the other.

Seems like a lot of Stealth fans are remaining Stealth fans! That makes sense, I don't think DCA intended for Expanse to replace Stealth in any way. They're co-flagships and each offer a different flavor.

Exactly. We wanted to appeal to two different preferences but to do so in a way the user could adjust the experience with one EQ point.

Posting this image to show there is a small difference between the Stealth and Expanse in the treble that might be what I'm hearing. (thanks @Nomax for the reference plot)



I think that subdued 6-10k region, plus the bump in the mid/bass region, could lead to a less airier presentation on the Expanse.

Nope, the difference in the top is because Expanse's AMTS tuning is slightly different due to the open config. If you adjust that up and adjust the upper bass down you'll likely find the experience sterile and maybe strident. I suggest you just adjust the bass if you want to modify the experience.

They are weirdly satisfying to listen to at very low volume.
Not sure why that is yet.

The extra bass in Expanse will improve tonal balance at lower volumes due to the way our sensitivity to bass adjusts due to volume. At lower volumes people who find the bass at high volumes to be a bit forward will likely prefer the tonality without EQ as the relative perceived bass level decreases. In short if you prefer the Stealth tonality at higher volumes at lower volumes Stealth may need EQ to sound balanced where Expanse will sound more balanced to you at lower volumes and you might EQ at higher levels.

This is something not mentioned by pro or audio reviewers, levels matter when you're discussing tonality, and that changes based on volume so your preference for headphones might literally reverse simply based on the level you're listening to at the time.

OK, I am listening to the MFSL version of Dark Side of the Moon and I'm hearing a decent connected stage. I still feel like the stage is pulled back and there's not much going on in front of me, but I am hearing a slightly larger center image that is connecting the left and right above my head, a bit like a rainbow shape. That's an improvement from what I'd been hearing where there was little connection between the two sides. The clarity, resolution, smoothness even during busy harsh parts like the screaming chorus in Us and Them are fantastic even at louder volumes. Bass and drums, of course, are a lot of fun...

So, it's definitely more recording dependent, and probably very gear dependent as well. As were the Stealth.

I agree, the tuning for Stealth or Expanse will work better for some albums than others, and then there are personal preferences on top.

Some specific examples of tracks with great production I clearly prefer on Expanse at around 90-95dB peak tuned as-is and want more upper bass on Stealth (generally these sound balanced on our home systems and our PA):

David Sylvian: I Surrender

Hinkstep: Opium

Arne Domnerus: Limehouse Blues

Massive Attack: Angel

Engegardkvartetten: Joseph Haydn (1732-1809): String Quartet In D, Op. 76, No. 5 - Finale - Presto

Some tracks with upper bass where EQ helps with Expanse and sound better on Stealth as-is (to me these sound like there's too much upper bass on my home systems and our big PA system):

Slackwax: Night Out

Lambchop: Mr Met

Sun Kill Moon: Half Moon Bay

It’s not an unfair conclusion. But it dismisses others who say they love the treble on the Expanse. At the end of the day, quantity of treble is a subjective preference. Some people will love it, some will hate it, and most will be somewhere in between. That’s all I’m saying. So I just wouldn’t call the treble “flawed”. But it definitely might not be to everyone’s liking. After all, the Harman Curve only represents what 80% of people prefer. So there’s going to be at least 20% who are outliers for that type of tuning reference.

I agree, preferences are not absolutes, there's a curve of people who will prefer one headphone over the other ranging from all the time, to some genres or albums, to never.

Our research showed a clear preference for Expanse the majority of the time but even for people who strongly prefer it there can be some content where Stealth may appear more to them.

The EQ posted resolves most of this both ways for both Stealth and Expanse owners and also helps adjust for different listening experiences at different volumes.

 

[Somatic]

Some great discussion over the weekend, thanks to everyone for sharing their impressions. It's not a surprise to me some prefer the Stealth tonality while others prefer Expanse. We tried to get the tonality VERY close but with a specific difference, as I discussed in the video, and that difference is Expanse is +2-2.5dB vs Stealth from 100-250Hz. As I explained in the video this is because to my ears, the Stealth/default Harman bass response is slightly recessed in this region, and as a bass player I can hear the decrease in intensity of the notes. Now, the flip side is that perceptually adding energy in this region adds weight to the bass which naturally decreases the relative perception of the highs.

As Nomax noted, we DO NOT recommend adjusting the highs because that will make the mids sound shrill. In fact I think I mentioned this in the video with Jude for just this reason: to adjust the Expanse tonality to get closer to Stealth PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, -2.5dB. Conversely to make Stealth sound closer to Expanse, PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, +2.5dB. I'll post this up front as well.

In our experience during testing and from discussion with customers probably 75% prefer Expanse outright, 25% prefer Stealth tonality. For PEQ some prefer to use it by album, while a few will leave it on most of the time. Content and how loud you listen are also considerations, Expanse's bass will hold up better at lower levels.

The nice thing is that with the design as-is people only need to make one PEQ adjustment so they can have their cake and eat it too.



Not recommended to adjust treble, it will make female vocals and strings edgy and bright.


Exactly. The main difference is a narrow band in the bass and this changes the imaging from pinpoint to "volume in space," this is what I referenced in the video.

People have different preferences/priorities in bass and in perception of imaging and soundstage; we offer a choice and also the tuning to make either headphone sound much closer to the other.


Exactly. We wanted to appeal to two different preferences but to do so in a way the user could adjust the experience with one EQ point.



Nope, the difference in the top is because Expanse's AMTS tuning is slightly different due to the open config. If you adjust that up and adjust the upper bass down you'll likely find the experience sterile and maybe strident. I suggest you just adjust the bass if you want to modify the experience.



The extra bass in Expanse will improve tonal balance at lower volumes due to the way our sensitivity to bass adjusts due to volume. At lower volumes people who find the bass at high volumes to be a bit forward will likely prefer the tonality without EQ as the relative perceived bass level decreases. In short if you prefer the Stealth tonality at higher volumes at lower volumes Stealth may need EQ to sound balanced where Expanse will sound more balanced to you at lower volumes and you might EQ at higher levels.

This is something not mentioned by pro or audio reviewers, levels matter when you're discussing tonality, and that changes based on volume so your preference for headphones might literally reverse simply based on the level you're listening to at the time.



I agree, the tuning for Stealth or Expanse will work better for some albums than others, and then there are personal preferences on top.

Some specific examples of tracks with great production I clearly prefer on Expanse at around 90-95dB peak tuned as-is and want more upper bass on Stealth (generally these sound balanced on our home systems and our PA):

David Sylvian: I Surrender

Hinkstep: Opium

Arne Domnerus: Limehouse Blues

Massive Attack: Angel

Engegardkvartetten: Joseph Haydn (1732-1809): String Quartet In D, Op. 76, No. 5 - Finale - Presto

Some tracks with upper bass where EQ helps with Expanse and sound better on Stealth as-is (to me these sound like there's too much upper bass on my home systems and our big PA system):

Slackwax: Night Out

Lambchop: Mr Met

Sun Kill Moon: Half Moon Bay


I agree, preferences are not absolutes, there's a curve of people who will prefer one headphone over the other ranging from all the time, to some genres or albums, to never.

Our research showed a clear preference for Expanse the majority of the time but even for people who strongly prefer it there can be some content where Stealth may appear more to them.

The EQ posted resolves most of this both ways for both Stealth and Expanse owners and also helps adjust for different listening experiences at different volumes.

Thank you for all the detailed responses. We all appreciate your input.

My only questions with the points you provided is the volume levels affecting the Expanse. So it seems low volume listening the mid bass is pretty balanced to your ears but what about high volume levels. Will it sound to have too much mid bass bloat at that time? I listen to bit perfect and don't have the time to EQ anymore due to convince sake in my current setup. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[iamoneagain]

Thank you for all the detailed responses. We all appreciate your input.

My only questions with the points you provided is the volume levels affecting the Expanse. So it seems low volume listening the mid bass is pretty balanced to your ears but what about high volume levels. Will it sound to have too much mid bass bloat at that time? I listen to bit perfect and don't have the time to EQ anymore due to convince sake in my current setup. Thoughts? Thanks.

Could come down to preference. I hear no bloat. The bass sounds alive and energetic at higher volumes. At low levels, it’s so balanced. Feels completely in control no matter the volume. I wanted to really test the bass, so put on an old favorite, Primus - Frizzle Fry. You can only listen to this with high volume. The remastered version is amazing. Plenty of impact and bass is so impressive. Less Claypool’s voice is love it or hate it.

 

[mrspeakers]

Thank you for all the detailed responses. We all appreciate your input.

My only questions with the points you provided is the volume levels affecting the Expanse. So it seems low volume listening the mid bass is pretty balanced to your ears but what about high volume levels. Will it sound to have too much mid bass bloat at that time? I listen to bit perfect and don't have the time to EQ anymore due to convince sake in my current setup. Thoughts? Thanks.

The threshold to detect bass is not linear, by the time you get to around 80dB the relative steps in the bass threshold become more linear so the relative changes in bass perception decrease above this level. This is why at lower volumes Expanse will have more perceived bass than Stealth but above 80dB the character of each headphone will remain fairly constant as volume increases to 110dB plus.

But don't get me wrong, I think Expanse sounds more balanced in the bass at all volumes! Obviously not everyone agrees either due to their tonality preference or they want to back the upper bass down to change the imaging from "volume in space" to "point in space" imaging, or simply because at their most typical listening volume one fits their preferences better than the other...

EDIT: This is the Fletcher-Munson curve that explains the levels needed to perceive different frequencies relative to 1 1KHz tone from 0-120dB.

 

[BassicScience]

Some great discussion over the weekend, thanks to everyone for sharing their impressions. It's not a surprise to me some prefer the Stealth tonality while others prefer Expanse. We tried to get the tonality VERY close but with a specific difference, as I discussed in the video, and that difference is Expanse is +2-2.5dB vs Stealth from 100-250Hz. As I explained in the video this is because to my ears, the Stealth/default Harman bass response is slightly recessed in this region, and as a bass player I can hear the decrease in intensity of the notes. Now, the flip side is that perceptually adding energy in this region adds weight to the bass which naturally decreases the relative perception of the highs.

Thank you for your detailed and enlightening post regarding EQ and Stealth/Expanse midbass response! I wanted to highlight the above sentence in the hope that a couple of (highly vocal) Head-Fi members will finally stop lecturing those of us who found the Stealth's bass level insufficient.

In any case, as a fan of the Aeon 2 Noire, I'm looking forward to auditioning the Expanse as a possible upgrade. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make it to CanJam as I've been out of the country, but should be able to drop by The Source AV circa the end of October for a listen.

 

[ra990]

Obviously not everyone agrees either due to their tonality preference or they want to back the upper bass down to change the imaging from "volume in space" to "point in space" imaging,

This was my biggest issue since soundstage is very high on my priority list. Once the midbass is reduced, the problem goes away for me and I get a more traditional "point in space" imaging instead of "volume in space".

I had been struggling to define the problem, but your post confirms that this was intentional and the EQ you suggested is very close to the one @Nomax and I ended up using.

So, this difference in the way that the stage is presented, to me, is a huge difference between the Stealth and the Expanse! Even though a couple of db brings the two more in line, the out of the box experience left me feeling like the stage was really missing on the Expanse.


Also, I didn't know that you were a bass player. Now this tuning makes sense. For kicks, this was the very first impression that I had with the Expanse and sent to another user via PM:

"First listen with the Expanse...I'm thinking it's maybe a bit too bass heavy. Everything I'm listening to, it sounds like the bass guitar is too high in the mix."

Of course, that's bound to happen when you let the bass player control the mix!

Thanks again and congrats on the new headphone @mrspeakers !

 

[alxw0w]

Ps. That's why loudness filter was invented.

 

[mrspeakers]

So, this difference in the way that the stage is presented, to me, is a huge difference between the Stealth and the Expanse! Even though a couple of db brings the two more in line, the out of the box experience left me feeling like the stage was really missing on the Expanse.

Thanks again and congrats on the new headphone @mrspeakers !

Interestingly to our design and review team the Expanse soundstage is quite a bit larger, it just goes to show that people experience and perceive soundstage and imaging in very different ways, using different audio cues. I would love to see more research on this than currently exists. Anyhow, have fun!