[Nomax]

@BassicScience

When Stealths Bass level is insufficient

Then I ask myself the question what is with .....and.....and... and many many more ?

NOMAX

PS.i mean all these which are under the Harman Target...and these are many
(Are then probably not so many who follow the Harman on the left side....then almost the whole Headfi community would have to cry out if that were the case )

 

[dmagnan]

Some great discussion over the weekend, thanks to everyone for sharing their impressions. It's not a surprise to me some prefer the Stealth tonality while others prefer Expanse. We tried to get the tonality VERY close but with a specific difference, as I discussed in the video, and that difference is Expanse is +2-2.5dB vs Stealth from 100-250Hz. As I explained in the video this is because to my ears, the Stealth/default Harman bass response is slightly recessed in this region, and as a bass player I can hear the decrease in intensity of the notes. Now, the flip side is that perceptually adding energy in this region adds weight to the bass which naturally decreases the relative perception of the highs.

As Nomax noted, we DO NOT recommend adjusting the highs because that will make the mids sound shrill. In fact I think I mentioned this in the video with Jude for just this reason: to adjust the Expanse tonality to get closer to Stealth PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, -2.5dB. Conversely to make Stealth sound closer to Expanse, PEQ 175Hz, Q=2.6, +2.5dB. I'll post this up front as well.

Nope, the difference in the top is because Expanse's AMTS tuning is slightly different due to the open config. If you adjust that up and adjust the upper bass down you'll likely find the experience sterile and maybe strident. I suggest you just adjust the bass if you want to modify the experience.

But the response plot shows a deep sharp dip in response at about 10 kHz of about 8dB relative to the Fletcher-Munson downward curve, and a smaller 3 dB dip at about 6-7kHz. It would seem as if the 10kHz dip, at least, would need to be compensated for.

 

[mrspeakers]

But the response plot shows a deep sharp dip in response at about 10 kHz of about 8dB relative to the Fletcher-Munson downward curve, and a smaller 3 dB dip at about 6-7kHz. It would seem as if the 10kHz dip, at least, would need to be compensated for.

Not really, if you look at the curves between 80-100db they are substantially parallel. It's an impossible task to parse perception into super narrow volume bands because volume levels change constantly within a track, during a listening session, even after you've had alcohol, and you'd have to dynamically track SPL. Even then, there are a number of considerations that make something like a DSP auto-scaling function a very bad idea...

 

[BassicScience]

@BassicScience

When Stealths Bass level is insufficient

Then I ask myself the question what is with .....and.....and... and many many more ?

NOMAX

PS.i mean all these which are under the Harman Target...and these are many

I've yet to hear any headphone that reproduces bass entirely realistically. That said, most of the flagships clearly achieve a better approximation than does the Stealth, to my ear. If others hear it differently, I can't really argue their personal preferences, but according to Dan Clark, they are in a distinct minority which doesn't include himself. I'm just really tired of comments which frame subjective impressions as absolutes, such as the following:

But as you have also experienced, for a whole year we had Stealth bashers in the Stealth thread. Many claimed the bass is lacking, but you also know...it is no way lacking any bass.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Moral of the story:

The tuning is objective

The hearing is subjective

I like the Harman target as a general goal and can’t wait to finally hear the Expanse.

 

[rthomas]

The closer a headphone is to the Harman Target the better it is. This is nonsense IMHO.

I have EQed multiple flagships to the Harman Target and guess what? The tonality becomes very similar but they all present music in a slightly different way.

This cannot be figured out by looking at graphs you need the headphone on your head in a quiet (NOT Canjam) environment.

I respect ASR and his knowledge and efforts but he cranks the hell out of headphones. Anything will sound dynamic, lively and engaging at those volumes

I'm currently listening to the Audeze CRBN and LCD5 using the EQ developed by Bob Katz and I prefer his EQ to EQing both headphones to the Harman Target.

This Harman Target worship needs to stop

I look forward to hearing the Expanse and seeing if it engages me in the music. I'm glad it adheres to a well known Target and has low distortion but in the end listening enjoyment is what matters.

 

[SolarCetacean]

But the response plot shows a deep sharp dip in response at about 10 kHz of about 8dB relative to the Fletcher-Munson downward curve, and a smaller 3 dB dip at about 6-7kHz. It would seem as if the 10kHz dip, at least, would need to be compensated for.

Be careful about attributing too much to that 10K dip: those sharp dips around 9-10K are usually interactions with the artificial pinna on the measurement rig, and won't be consistent across different heads/ears. A lot of headphones show a very deep dip in that region, but most people won't actually hear that dip while listening to the headphones themselves even when running a sine sweep. I have a number of headphones that measure with a sharp dip at 9-10K, but to my ears that is usually where they have a peak or rise rather than a dip. The sharp dip occurs at 7.2K for me, and most over-ears will exhibit that dip when I listen to them regardless of how they measure on a standardized rig. That's likely the pinna interaction point for me, since none of my IEMs have ever exhibited a similar 7.2K dip, and neither does a Stax Lambda-series headphone.
Basically, ignore any sharp dip between 8 and 10 KHz on a graph unless it's also corroborated by listener impressions, because that dip is most likely a measurement artifact.

 

[iamoneagain]

The closer a headphone is to the Harman Target the better it is. This is nonsense IMHO.

I have EQed multiple flagships to the Harman Target and guess what? The tonality becomes very similar but they all present music in a slightly different way.

This cannot be figured out by looking at graphs you need the headphone on your head in a quiet (NOT Canjam) environment.

I respect ASR and his knowledge and efforts but he cranks the hell out of headphones. Anything will sound dynamic, lively and engaging at those volumes

I'm currently listening to the Audeze CRBN and LCD5 using the EQ developed by Bob Katz and I prefer his EQ to EQing both headphones to the Harman Target.

This Harman Target worship needs to stop

I look forward to hearing the Expanse and seeing if it engages me in the music. I'm glad it adheres to a well known Target and has low distortion but in the end listening enjoyment is what matters.

It adheres to the target up to a point. He purposely boosted the mid bass to give it more energy.

I’m actually going to setup EQ in roon to adjust it to sound like the Stealth just for comparison. At CanJam, it didn’t care for the Stealth. This EQ is really just for fun. I know I’ll never use it.

 

[iamoneagain]

Just did a little EQ test still using Primus. The Stealth doesn’t sound too bad on my Naim HE but it’s almost like feeling the music vs just hearing it. With the Stealth setting, music is more in front of you, positioning is even more precise, and guitar is even more twangy. But with that said, you don’t feel the low end. Bass is there but I’m just listening to it. With no EQ, the Expanse washes over you and sound more live like at a show vs being vs getting a direct feed at a recording studio. I could see how if you’ve gotten used or prefer the Stealth sound, the Expanse may sound a little muffled in comparison. And maybe it couldn’t work better on certain genres l, but I’ll be sticking with no EQ. Probably just play around with it a bit more just to get a better handle in the differences.

 

[ra990]

Just did a little EQ test still using Primus. The Stealth doesn’t sound too bad on my Naim HE but it’s almost like feeling the music vs just hearing it. With the Stealth setting, music is more in front of you, positioning is even more precise, and guitar is even more twangy. But with that said, you don’t feel the low end. Bass is there but I’m just listening to it. With no EQ, the Expanse washes over you and sound more live like at a show vs being vs getting a direct feed at a recording studio. I could see how if you’ve gotten used or prefer the Stealth sound, the Expanse may sound a little muffled in comparison. And maybe it couldn’t work better on certain genres l, but I’ll be sticking with no EQ. Probably just play around with it a bit more just to get a better handle in the differences.

Agree, Stealth is more the studio reference master sound, the Expanse is more the live show. That's been my feeling hearing the two.

Also, you nailed the Stealth's positioning being more in front of you. With no EQ, I find Expanse to not have much positioning in front at all.

 

[jlbrach]

You know what I'm talking about with the bells then...those were some real sounding bells, damn!

indeed, I have had some real enjoyable time listening to all sorts of classic albums

 

[jlbrach]

Anyone looking to trade Solitaire P for an Expanse? PM if interested. I'm assuming some of you that really liked the Stealth might not be jiving with the Expanse 100%.

I owned and really liked the sol p....the expanse is better IMHO

 

[iamoneagain]

Agree, Stealth is more the studio reference master sound, the Expanse is more the live show. That's been my feeling hearing the two.

Also, you nailed the Stealth's positioning being more in front of you. With no EQ, I find Expanse to not have much positioning in front at all.

I still hear it in front of me but it’s more like at a small club and standing right next to the stage. And for the most part in my teens, that’s exactly how I saw most shows. Could be why I have tinnitus now. There were a few shows I could barely hear when I left. I wish I could say it was worth it but rather not have ringing now.

One thing to note at CanJam, some people listen a crazy loud levels. I needed to remember to always turn the volume down before listening. Sadly think a lot of these people will also end up with tinnitus at some point if don’t change their habits. That’s one of best things about the Expanse is how well it performs at low levels. Not going to lie, I still turn it up but not like those crazy levels.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I owned and really liked the sol p....the expanse is better IMHO

That’s high praise! That headphone is like 2x the cost and has gotten some very good reviews.

 

[ra990]

That’s high praise! That headphone is like 2x the cost and has gotten some very good reviews.

It's also built like a tank, but it was pretty uncomfortable. That headband was awful and would be painful within 10 minutes of putting them on.