[chesebert]

Topping USB performance is always great since they use XMOS. The other inputs are always great too from what I've seen. Honestly I haven't owned a DAC made within the last decade or more that had audible USB issues.

I know the measured performance on APx555 is great, but they suck in real life; at least in my system (I even used ifi USB3 and igalvanic)

 

[dougq]

The E3 sound amazing out of a Magni Unity with Dac for $190. Equally as good from a $1k+ setup. Similar dynamics, soundstage, etc. Possibly slightly different sounds. If you don't like the E3 after listening for a while and letting the pads break in and settle and also for your brain to adjust, then it might just not be for you. All assuming you have a good enough seal.

Great headphones that will run off of most any modern dac / amp and sound fantastic.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Who ever said that was either trying to sell you cans or was not being completely truthful or has limited knowledge of higher priced electronics or has yet to developed critical listening skills to appreciate the quality. The headphones first mantra applies only to low end cans. Once your cans reach 580/600 performance level your electronics will dictate how much performance you are able to extract from the cans. The better the cans the more those cans will be affected by the electronics. Just look at 800, you get folks who say they lack bass and sound thin and others say they are full sounding with great bass slam and prat. The difference is in the electronics.

Couldn’t disagree with this more. Of course, you can think and believe whatever you want. With very few exceptions, the most important part of the chain is almost always the headphones.

 

[jonathan c]

Couldn’t disagree with this more. Of course, you can think and believe whatever you want. With very few exceptions, the most important part of the chain is almost always the headphones.

For you, yes. For some, including me, the most important part of the chain is the source component.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

For you, yes. For some, including me, the most important part of the chain is the source component.

Totally fine to agree to disagree. My Atriums sound amazing even amped by a THX amp and a Modi dac. You can’t make an Ultrasone sound good even paired with a Chord Dave and amped by Chernobyl. To each their own.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Totally fine to agree to disagree. My Atriums sound amazing even amped by a THX amp and a Modi dac. You can’t make an Ultrasone sound good even paired with a Chord Dave and amped by Chernobyl. To each their own.

Those THX amps are top tier performers in every metric, no surprise there!

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Those THX amps are top tier performers in every metric, no surprise there!

That’s my point! You can spend very little on your source chain and get amazing sound as long as your headphone choice is good

But if your headphones suck, it doesn’t matter what amp and dac you connect them to. Your headphones still suck.

 

[Luckyleo]

That’s my point! You can spend very little on your source chain and get amazing sound as long as your headphone choice is good

But if your headphones suck, it doesn’t matter what amp and dac you connect them to. Your headphones still suck.

I agree with your 2nd point. But if you've compared 2, 3, 5, cheaper/less expensive DACs and/or Amps, how do you know potentially how good the headphones could sound until you have experienced with a setup that could cost $2k for each piece of kit to feed them? As we used to say back in the day, we only know what we know. If you know, thru experience then point 1 could be true. Interested to know.

Thanks!

Leo

 

[Rhamnetin]

I agree with your 2nd point. But if you've compared 2, 3, 5, cheaper/less expensive DACs and/or Amps, how do you know potentially how good the headphones could sound until you have experienced with a setup that could cost $2k for each piece of kit to feed them? As we used to say back in the day, we only know what we know. If you know, thru experience then point 1 could be true. Interested to know.

Thanks!

Leo

It is a mistake to correlate price with quality, you'd be more correct to correlate the age (in terms of how old the design is) with quality. Today's best $150 amps/DACs far outperform the best of the earlier 2010s and 2000s, which is when many of today's most popular amps and DACs were designed. For example, both the $3,500 Benchmark HPA4 and $290 SMSL SH-9 use a pair of THX-AAA 888 amplifiers... yup, the same amplifiers! Along with the same type of volume control. Both generally use common, high quality components as well. They measure identically in every area except for power output (and probably crosstalk but this is a nonissue in pretty much any 21st century amp), no doubt influenced by their different power supplies. Gain is also something that might vary between them. On the other hand, there are plenty of technically poor performing amplifiers with 4 figure price tags (or even 5 figures in the speaker world).

For electronics (DACs, amps), a complete set of measurements really tells their story quite well, and level matched blind testing validates this, which is what has led me to part ways with all my overpriced audiophile brand electronics. These devices have a simple job. Power constraints? You can calculate the amount of power you need for a desired SPL for a given headphone, so you don't have to try a headphone+amp combo to figure this out. The E3 doesn't need that much power. Amplifier frequency response? Anything worth a damn will be flat beyond the audible band, including good $100 amps. Then you know the amp isn't affecting your headphone's frequency response. Noise and distortion (THD and IMD), SNR and SINAD? These metrics are dominated by affordable amps (along with that Benchmark amp).

That's getting off topic though. The E3 as said earlier is pretty easy to run: it needs an amp, a transparent amp is always ideal, but it doesn't need that much power. My Chord Mojo 2 handles it just fine. I haven't blind tested it against my Bricasti M1 SE or SMSL SU-X + HeadAmp GS-X Mini or Topping A70 Pro since it's annoying to set that up, but it certainly doesn't sound like I'm missing anything.

If you want to experiment with how the E3 sounds, it takes EQ well due to how low its distortion levels are. After doing so, I ended up back where I started though. The E3's stock tuning is really perfect for me.

That’s my point! You can spend very little on your source chain and get amazing sound as long as your headphone choice is good

But if your headphones suck, it doesn’t matter what amp and dac you connect them to. Your headphones still suck.

Indeed, except with regards to point 1 if you're just power starved and can't get ample volume. Thankfully these days we can get top performing headphone amps and DACs for under $150 though, and these amps have a hell of a lot of power these days like the latest Magni and Atom Amp 2. JDS Labs and THX changed the game in the 2010s.

 

[Luckyleo]

It is a mistake to correlate price with quality, you'd be more correct to correlate the age (in terms of how old the design is) with quality. Today's best $150 amps/DACs far outperform the best of the earlier 2010s and 2000s, which is when many of today's most popular amps and DACs were designed. For example, both the $3,500 Benchmark HPA4 and $290 SMSL SH-9 use a pair of THX-AAA 888 amplifiers... yup, the same amplifiers! Along with the same type of volume control. Both generally use common, high quality components as well. They measure identically in every area except for power output (and probably crosstalk but this is a nonissue in pretty much any 21st century amp), no doubt influenced by their different power supplies. Gain is also something that might vary between them. On the other hand, there are plenty of technically poor performing amplifiers with 4 figure price tags (or even 5 figures in the speaker world).

For electronics (DACs, amps), a complete set of measurements really tells their story quite well, and level matched blind testing validates this, which is what has led me to part ways with all my overpriced audiophile brand electronics. These devices have a simple job. Power constraints? You can calculate the amount of power you need for a desired SPL for a given headphone, so you don't have to try a headphone+amp combo to figure this out. The E3 doesn't need that much power. Amplifier frequency response? Anything worth a damn will be flat beyond the audible band, including good $100 amps. Then you know the amp isn't affecting your headphone's frequency response. Noise and distortion (THD and IMD), SNR and SINAD? These metrics are dominated by affordable amps (along with that Benchmark amp).

That's getting off topic though. The E3 as said earlier is pretty easy to run: it needs an amp, a transparent amp is always ideal, but it doesn't need that much power. My Chord Mojo 2 handles it just fine. I haven't blind tested it against my Bricasti M1 SE or SMSL SU-X + HeadAmp GS-X Mini or Topping A70 Pro since it's annoying to set that up, but it certainly doesn't sound like I'm missing anything.

If you want to experiment with how the E3 sounds, it takes EQ well due to how low its distortion levels are. After doing so, I ended up back where I started though. The E3's stock tuning is really perfect for me.



Indeed, except with regards to point 1 if you're just power starved and can't get ample volume. Thankfully these days we can get top performing headphone amps and DACs for under $150 though, and these amps have a hell of a lot of power these days like the latest Magni and Atom Amp 2. JDS Labs and THX changed the game in the 2010s.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. Thank you!

Leo

 

[Currawong]

Those THX amps are top tier performers in every metric, no surprise there!

And they produce a soundstage that is flat front-to-back, probably due to phase distortion from the excessive negative feedback. The Drop THX AAA 798, despite supposedly being excellent measuring, could very audibly be improved with a better PSU, and/or with more capacitance, making it very obvious that something else is going on beyond SINAD.

The manufacturers are basically using a limited amount of data to trick people. Try playing back a movie soundtrack with 30 Hz bass through the E3s from one of these cheap amps with great SINAD and hear the distortion. But, you know, as they say, if you like more distortion, that's your preference!

 

[Rhamnetin]

And they produce a soundstage that is flat front-to-back, probably due to phase distortion from the excessive negative feedback. The Drop THX AAA 798, despite supposedly being excellent measuring, could very audibly be improved with a better PSU, and/or with more capacitance, making it very obvious that something else is going on beyond SINAD.

The manufacturers are basically using a limited amount of data to trick people. Try playing back a movie soundtrack with 30 Hz bass through the E3s from one of these cheap amps with great SINAD and hear the distortion. But, you know, as they say, if you like more distortion, that's your preference!

SINAD is certainly an overrated metric in some circles and 3rd party data should always take precedence over manufacturer data (some is better than none though), but I am curious about the phase distortion you mention. Is there any good reading material and data for that with the THX amps (or similar NFB amps) and with headphone listening? I've never seen any concrete evidence here. These are pretty wide bandwidth amps, I wouldn't expect much phase distortion but it is true that these measurements are hard to find. That, and I guess comparing the group delay measurement of a headphone with such an amp vs a "pure" Class A amp should address this.

For what it's worth, I certainly perceive no sound stage differences with the E3 between the HeadAmp GS-X Mini, Topping A70 Pro, and Chord Mojo 2.

 

[dougq]

And they produce a soundstage that is flat front-to-back, probably due to phase distortion from the excessive negative feedback. The Drop THX AAA 798, despite supposedly being excellent measuring, could very audibly be improved with a better PSU, and/or with more capacitance, making it very obvious that something else is going on beyond SINAD.

The manufacturers are basically using a limited amount of data to trick people. Try playing back a movie soundtrack with 30 Hz bass through the E3s from one of these cheap amps with great SINAD and hear the distortion. But, you know, as they say, if you like more distortion, that's your preference!

Doing so now. No distortion. No flat soundstage.

 

[Erick Muller]

And they produce a soundstage that is flat front-to-back, probably due to phase distortion from the excessive negative feedback. The Drop THX AAA 798, despite supposedly being excellent measuring, could very audibly be improved with a better PSU, and/or with more capacitance, making it very obvious that something else is going on beyond SINAD.

The manufacturers are basically using a limited amount of data to trick people. Try playing back a movie soundtrack with 30 Hz bass through the E3s from one of these cheap amps with great SINAD and hear the distortion. But, you know, as they say, if you like more distortion, that's your preference!

Yep, as a previous owner of a Fiio K7 pro it made my LCD2C almost impossible to listen to, granted that was before I started using roon, HQPlayer and EQing them properly, but I didn't have that issue with both my magni heresy, magni+, Drop + SMSL HO150X amp and even less so with my current amp, the S17, which pretty much is a "fixer" amp like Zeos remark on his review of the amp.

 

[theveterans]

I supposed there could be a couple of people in the world that like the ultrasone 10, but unless the can in question is literally broken, I think that specially in today's market, almost everything at every price bracket sounds at least good enough, it's going to be more a question of preference at the end of the day.

Regarding the question of electronics and source chain, there's the classic example of the Susvara that needs really good quality amplification and lots of power to drive it to it's full potential, ditto for Tungsten that it is even harder to drive than susvara, going by the numbers at least, so I don't doubt that the E3 needs special amplification and probably a higher tier DAC in order to bring out it's full potential sound wise, but there's also other cases like the Meze Elite that sound really good regardless of amplification and are not so demanding of absolute TOLT source chain equipment to bring out it's full potential.

Tungsten is easier to drive than Susvara using OTL tube amps. Susvara can't be driven with OTL amps just like the E3, but Tungsten is a much easier load for OTL tube than both Susvara and E3 since it's more voltage hungry than current hungry