[puresilence]

Ha, when I meant locally, I meant local resellers. I don't mind non-American stuff, but I prefer the better support and less headache I can get from local resellers. But yeah, point taken.

 

[LizardKing1]

Wow Audeze has the best customer service I ever heard of. I don't think Grados's was that bad (except for the left-at-your-door thing... that's the dumbest decision ever, they could and probably would get stolen, and I guess we would have a different complaint, about Grado not sending you a replacement), but Audeze's was really great. I think the fact that they might be a smaller company would help, but like you said, the established/new factor probably matters as well.

 

[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

Ha, when I meant locally, I meant local resellers. I don't mind non-American stuff, but I prefer the better support and less headache I can get from local resellers. But yeah, point taken.

Definitely, yes.  Local resellers often offer better support and fewer headaches.  It's one of the fascinating aspects of human nature.  People just tend to treat you better if there's a real possibility you might show up right in front of them.
 

 

[ricmiclaw]

Quote:

Wow Audeze has the best customer service I ever heard of. I don't think Grados's was that bad (except for the left-at-your-door thing... that's the dumbest decision ever, they could and probably would get stolen, and I guess we would have a different complaint, about Grado not sending you a replacement), but Audeze's was really great. I think the fact that they might be a smaller company would help, but like you said, the established/new factor probably matters as well.

I don't know the exact numbers but I think Grado has about 20 employees.  I think Audeze has 2 or more.  However, logic tells me that it takes more than 2 to make all these LCD2s and also run the business.  Whether direct employees or outsourced, Audeze is almost certainly bigger than just 2.  20 or so isn't too big to claim bureaucracy nor is it too small to claim there aren't enough people to do the job.  I was very impressed with Audeze and other companies, large and smallish, too. 
 
For the record, Grado's last delivery did come with a signature requirement, which is a good thing.  I doubt a company that will not reimburse $32-3 dollars for reshipping when the repairs weren't made would have replaced $1700 headphones if they were stolen, etc.
 
The other thing about the size argument is that I really don't think that how big or small a company is really matters in terms of providing customer service.  Nobody hangs a shingle outside their business that says "Due to the small number of employees, please expect lousy service, poor communications, etc."  Small and family-fun companies like to actually boast that their small size and family orientation makes them more attuned to customer service and needs, personal touches, etc.  Similarly, larger companies like to boast that their large size allows them the resources to do good work rapidly and other advantages of size.  These larger companies don't take out advertisements in the Wall Street Journal proclaiming that they're too big to care about somebody's puny problem.  
 
When any company (small, family-run or large) gets customer service right, that's great.  But when they don't get it right, they or their supporters shouldn't try to hide behind the same arguments that were put forth originally as advantages.  I don't think companies of any size ought to be able to have it both ways.  Either their customer service is good or it isn't.  I'm not buying stock in their company; I don't care how big or small it is.  I only want to know that if I need their help, they'll be there for me.  It's that simple.  If they can't do it, they shouldn't provide warranties nor should they or their supporters be hypocrites about the benefits of size (large or small) or ownership, if there aren't any such benefits when actually dealing with them. 
 

 

[LizardKing1]

Quote:

I don't know the exact numbers but I think Grado has about 20 employees.  I think Audeze has 2 or more.  However, logic tells me that it takes more than 2 to make all these LCD2s and also run the business.  Whether direct employees or outsourced, Audeze is almost certainly bigger than just 2.  20 or so isn't too big to claim bureaucracy nor is it too small to claim there aren't enough people to do the job.  I was very impressed with Audeze and other companies, large and smallish, too. 
 
For the record, Grado's last delivery did come with a signature requirement, which is a good thing.  I doubt a company that will not reimburse $32-3 dollars for reshipping when the repairs weren't made would have replaced $1700 headphones if they were stolen, etc.
 
The other thing about the size argument is that I really don't think that how big or small a company is really matters in terms of providing customer service.  Nobody hangs a shingle outside their business that says "Due to the small number of employees, please expect lousy service, poor communications, etc."  Small and family-fun companies like to actually boast that their small size and family orientation makes them more attuned to customer service and needs, personal touches, etc.  Similarly, larger companies like to boast that their large size allows them the resources to do good work rapidly and other advantages of size.  These larger companies don't take out advertisements in the Wall Street Journal proclaiming that they're too big to care about somebody's puny problem.  
 
When any company (small, family-run or large) gets customer service right, that's great.  But when they don't get it right, they or their supporters shouldn't try to hide behind the same arguments that were put forth originally as advantages.  I don't think companies of any size ought to be able to have it both ways.  Either their customer service is good or it isn't.  I'm not buying stock in their company; I don't care how big or small it is.  I only want to know that if I need their help, they'll be there for me.  It's that simple.  If they can't do it, they shouldn't provide warranties nor should they or their supporters be hypocrites about the benefits of size (large or small) or ownership, if there aren't any such benefits when actually dealing with them. 
 

 
Wait I don't get your logic... first you say "size doesn't matter on customer service quality" then go on to give a series of examples - with which I agree, at least on the small company part, I know that to be true - of how size does influence that's what she said.
 
Look I'm not saying a larger company has an excuse to have poor customer service, I'm just saying I think they often have it more than a smaller one. Except for some huge companies, like McDonalds, with an enormous PR machine. I don't like cancer, but I won't say it isn't real, same way as I don't like a big company having a bad customer service although I've found that to be true. You don't have to agree with me, but don't say I was excusing big companies of having bad customer relationship, I was just showing how I think it happens.

 

[ricmiclaw]

 
Quote:

 
Wait I don't get your logic... first you say "size doesn't matter on customer service quality" then go on to give a series of examples - with which I agree, at least on the small company part, I know that to be true - of how size does influence that's what she said.
 
Look I'm not saying a larger company has an excuse to have poor customer service, I'm just saying I think they often have it more than a smaller one. Except for some huge companies, like McDonalds, with an enormous PR machine. I don't like cancer, but I won't say it isn't real, same way as I don't like a big company having a bad customer service although I've found that to be true. You don't have to agree with me, but don't say I was excusing big companies of having bad customer relationship, I was just showing how I think it happens.

 
We really don't disagree.  I think we were just talking about different things.  
 
Perhaps my point was made in a confusing way.  To put it more simply, I just wanted to say that whether a company is large or small doesn't matter to me, the customer seeking good service.  Large and small companies each have their own marketing hype trying to say that they are in a better position than their competitors to provide good service because of their size, whether large or small.  When they don't actually provide good service, they try to turn their own marketing hype on its head by reversing the logic.  In other words, a small company says "we're small so we can give you personal attention".  OK.  That's fine.  Then, when the small company actually gives poor service, it tries to use the same smallness as an excuse "please excuse our poor performance because we're too small to have the resources needed to do the job right."  The large company does the same "we're large so we have lots of resources to put at your disposal for good service".  OK.  That's fine, too.  Then, when the large company actually gives poor service, it also tries to turn the same largeness argument on its head as an excuse "please excuse our poor performance because we're too big to know what's going on or we're too big to realize you were having a problem or we're too big to even care about your problem (always in different words)".  My point is simply that large and small companies try to have it both ways when they provide poor service and I don't think we should let them get away with such hypocrisy.  And if it isn't the companies themselves, it's their supporters who engage in these exercises in illogic. 
 

 

[sferic]

Actually, smaller companies should provide better customer service if they want to grow. They rarely can compete on price although companies like Audeze & Schiit seem to be a new breed that can.
 
Big companies quickly get to a point where they have to outsource it, then all they have to rely on to grade quality are performance metrics, which will provide a baseline, and hopefully guard against the worst, but due to corporate silos etc. it will rarely be the best. And certainly not personal.
 
Small companies are the only ones that can provide the best, most personal customer service. Simply because the workers know you - you're not just data in a CRM system. I was in a company of 24 people for many years and we consistently won awards against MUCH larger companies for customer service. (Of course, I had designed the systems
 
Before that, I worked with another small company, similar size, that had famously BAD customer service. Because the revenues were going up the owner's nose and into keeping intellectually disabled relatives in high-paid largely ceremonial positions instead of toward building the business or paying for quality people to deal with manufacturing & customer service.
 
In the headphone business, I'm sure you get your share of crazies, but they can be identified pretty easily by a good CS person. Other than that, they are just dealing with the routine, predictable, 5% (or whatever) rate of manufacturing defects. That needs to be built into the business plan, just like warehouse rent and free coffee. If they have a spike in CS issues, beyond the baseline, then the owners need to jump on that pronto. In a small company, it's not like you have all these competing interests, PowerPoints, & 6 month blackout windows because IT is revamping some system or the other. You have weekly staff meetings and when the CS folks say "We had 3 times the normal number of complaints on XXXX model this week" it can be investigated immediately.
 
Having gone from a career in mostly smaller businesses to a mega-corp, I have to say small companies have a HUGE advantage in that they are able to identify & correct issues almost instantly. IF THEY CARE TO.
 
I guess I'm trying to say I can understand exceptionally good, or exceptionally bad CS from a small company. But I cannot understand mediocrity.
 
 
 
 

 

[sferic]

Quote:

 
 
when the small company actually gives poor service, it tries to use the same smallness as an excuse "please excuse our poor performance because we're too small to have the resources needed to do the job right."  The large company does the same "we're large so we have lots of resources to put at your disposal for good service".  OK.  That's fine, too.  Then, when the large company actually gives poor service, it also tries to turn the same largeness argument on its head as an excuse "please excuse our poor performance because we're too big to know what's going on

You have it there in a nutshell! What I will say, is the small company is lying, the owner should add more people instead of buying a new Mercedes S-Class every year! The big company is actually being truthful - the left hand has no idea what the right ear is doing because they've hired all these silver-spoon MBA's that don't know anything about the real world! LOL! Bottom line, take your dollars to the folks, big or small, who can f*ing figure out how to make it work. It's possible, a proven fact.

 

[ricmiclaw]

Actually, smaller companies should provide better customer service if they want to grow. They rarely can compete on price although companies like Audeze & Schiit seem to be a new breed that can.
 
Big companies quickly get to a point where they have to outsource it, then all they have to rely on to grade quality are performance metrics, which will provide a baseline, and hopefully guard against the worst, but due to corporate silos etc. it will rarely be the best. And certainly not personal.
 
Small companies are the only ones that can provide the best, most personal customer service. Simply because the workers know you - you're not just data in a CRM system. I was in a company of 24 people for many years and we consistently won awards against MUCH larger companies for customer service. (Of course, I had designed the systems
 
Before that, I worked with another small company, similar size, that had famously BAD customer service. Because the revenues were going up the owner's nose and into keeping intellectually disabled relatives in high-paid largely ceremonial positions instead of toward building the business or paying for quality people to deal with manufacturing & customer service.
 
In the headphone business, I'm sure you get your share of crazies, but they can be identified pretty easily by a good CS person. Other than that, they are just dealing with the routine, predictable, 5% (or whatever) rate of manufacturing defects. That needs to be built into the business plan, just like warehouse rent and free coffee. If they have a spike in CS issues, beyond the baseline, then the owners need to jump on that pronto. In a small company, it's not like you have all these competing interests, PowerPoints, & 6 month blackout windows because IT is revamping some system or the other. You have weekly staff meetings and when the CS folks say "We had 3 times the normal number of complaints on XXXX model this week" it can be investigated immediately.
 
Having gone from a career in mostly smaller businesses to a mega-corp, I have to say small companies have a HUGE advantage in that they are able to identify & correct issues almost instantly. IF THEY CARE TO.
 
I guess I'm trying to say I can understand exceptionally good, or exceptionally bad CS from a small company. But I cannot understand mediocrity.
 
 
 
 

I don't think I've seen the issues stated as well by anyone as you have in this post. Thank you.

 

[ricmiclaw]

You have it there in a nutshell! What I will say, is the small company is lying, the owner should add more people instead of buying a new Mercedes S-Class every year! The big company is actually being truthful - the left hand has no idea what the right ear is doing because they've hired all these silver-spoon MBA's that don't know anything about the real world! LOL! Bottom line, take your dollars to the folks, big or small, who can f*ing figure out how to make it work. It's possible, a proven fact.

You're right again. I'm tired of people making, and accepting, BS excuses for rotten service. I guess some people have money to burn and there's plenty of lousy business people who will be more than pleased to burn it for them.

 

[LizardKing1]

Don't people sometimes accept bad customer service from smaller companies better than from large ones? I'm not saying it's right, but if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs tries to make an excuse for a huge product defect, people will never forgive them as easily as they would forgive the owner of Hifiman for letting out a batch of defective products. I guess they relate more to a small business owner, trying to struggle in a mega-corporate world.

 

[lazysleepyboi]

 
Quote:

Don't people sometimes accept bad customer service from smaller companies better than from large ones? I'm not saying it's right, but if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs tries to make an excuse for a huge product defect, people will never forgive them as easily as they would forgive the owner of Hifiman for letting out a batch of defective products. I guess they relate more to a small business owner, trying to struggle in a mega-corporate world.

actually i think the exact opposite holds true also. Both hold true in their own way, let me try to explain my reasoning here. I would accept bad customer support from my internet provider because I know that they're busy and that I know already that I'll be on the phone on hold for a long time before I even dial the phone. It doesn't make it right that my internet company has problems and makes me wait a long time, it's just something I knew I would get myself into for higher internet speeds. Now, for smaller companies, in my mind they have to have good customer support in order to thrive and last in this kind of economy. Customer loyalty can be a lot stronger than most people realize. Good products are a factor in loyalty but customer support plays a big role also. Now, in my head I can forgive some smaller companies for bad customer support, why? Well it's pretty simple, I know already that they have less people working at the company so sometimes that one person has to do it all and sometimes they cant do it all effectively. Take Rob at headstage for example, he used to reply to people when he first started Headphonia, now, it seems harder and harder to contact him. When you buy a headstage arrow amp, you just give him your 300 dollars and just wait for that email that says your item is shipping, even if you have to wait 4-6 months for your order to be processed and shipped. I've heard of buyers not getting any response from Rob even from facebook or email, so it's pretty strange which direction he's taking his company. 
 
All of us have a different mentality when it comes to smaller company, and it's not as easy as explaining it all up in one sentence or word. Some people prefer smaller companies because their operating costs seem to be cheaper because they don't have to pay an ample amount of workers and they don't usually provide health, dental, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know if these small audio companies offer insurance or not.) Take audeze for example, they created the LCD2 at a reasonable price of 950 and most people are on the consensus that this headphone beats many other in the same category. Even the T1 and HD800 which cost 200-300 more fail in comparison (for some people). It all depends on who you are, your views about the world, and what you yourself tolerate from smaller companies. All of us have a different breaking point, tolerance point, and experience or knowledge about this particular field. So to answer your question, yes and no.

 

[ricmiclaw]

Don't people sometimes accept bad customer service from smaller companies better than from large ones? I'm not saying it's right, but if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs tries to make an excuse for a huge product defect, people will never forgive them as easily as they would forgive the owner of Hifiman for letting out a batch of defective products. I guess they relate more to a small business owner, trying to struggle in a mega-corporate world.

I think you're correct.  (I'm actually not sure of the size of HiFiMan in China.  Its American distributor, Head-Direct, seems quite small.  But I still take your point.)  Some people do try to excuse poor service from small companies more than they're willing to do for large companies.  
 
But I think this gets the logic backwards. I'm not suggesting that you get it backwards but that the argument in favor of small companies gets hopelessly corrupted when the company or it's supporters ju jitsu the language and try to use the advantage as an excuse.  A prime advantage of smallness is nimbleness.  But some people and small businesses use the smallness to excuse the poor service and the failure to address the service problems.  How does this work?  "We're too nimble to move quickly?"  "We were so close to the customer that we didn't realize we dropped the ball?"  "We are so concerned about family values that we forgot our customer also has a family to support?"  The very closeness of the customer contacts and nimbleness of size makes repeated failures even more damaging.  These excuses serve neither the poorly treated customer or the small business.  
 
If somebody else wants to continue supporting with their money a small business that consistently can't get service right and doesn't take advantage of its small size to promptly correct the problems, that's entirely their own affair.  I will choose another business that values my money more highly by showing that it understands the imperative to promptly correct the inevitable mistakes.  I suggest that any business that consistently fails to properly serve its customers and to promptly correct mistakes should not remain in business; at least not with my money.   

 

[ricmiclaw]

 


actually i think the exact opposite holds true also. Both hold true in their own way, let me try to explain my reasoning here. I would accept bad customer support from my internet provider because I know that they're busy and that I know already that I'll be on the phone on hold for a long time before I even dial the phone. It doesn't make it right that my internet company has problems and makes me wait a long time, it's just something I knew I would get myself into for higher internet speeds. Now, for smaller companies, in my mind they have to have good customer support in order to thrive and last in this kind of economy. Customer loyalty can be a lot stronger than most people realize. Good products are a factor in loyalty but customer support plays a big role also. Now, in my head I can forgive some smaller companies for bad customer support, why? Well it's pretty simple, I know already that they have less people working at the company so sometimes that one person has to do it all and sometimes they cant do it all effectively. Take Rob at headstage for example, he used to reply to people when he first started Headphonia, now, it seems harder and harder to contact him. When you buy a headstage arrow amp, you just give him your 300 dollars and just wait for that email that says your item is shipping, even if you have to wait 4-6 months for your order to be processed and shipped. I've heard of buyers not getting any response from Rob even from facebook or email, so it's pretty strange which direction he's taking his company. 
 
All of us have a different mentality when it comes to smaller company, and it's not as easy as explaining it all up in one sentence or word. Some people prefer smaller companies because their operating costs seem to be cheaper because they don't have to pay an ample amount of workers and they don't usually provide health, dental, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know if these small audio companies offer insurance or not.) Take audeze for example, they created the LCD2 at a reasonable price of 950 and most people are on the consensus that this headphone beats many other in the same category. Even the T1 and HD800 which cost 200-300 more fail in comparison (for some people). It all depends on who you are, your views about the world, and what you yourself tolerate from smaller companies. All of us have a different breaking point, tolerance point, and experience or knowledge about this particular field. So to answer your question, yes and no.

As someone with absolutely nothing whatever to do with Headphonia, based solely on your description of the company's behavior, I'd say the direction the company's owner is taking is down.  If you like his products, we can hope that Headphonia is dealing with growing pains and will get better.  That's an example of the willingness we have to sometimes give a pass to small companies for poor service; a pass we wouldn't give to large companies.  The question remains - but for how long?  A small company with a nice product will often develop a certain store of good will upon which it can draw for a while to cover for inevitable mistakes.  At some point, if the mistakes don't stop, the store of good will is exhausted.  People will stop listening to the excuses and the company folds.  That's about how it works for individual people, too.  At some point, "my mother's ill", "my car didn't start", "a meteor fell out of the sky and destroyed your amp", and the perennial "the dog ate my homework" excuses all stop being mildly amusing and slight smiles turn into angry scowls.  There are many variables that decide when that point of no return is reached.  Of one thing I can practically assure you, many companies deliberately put a certain "hassle factor" in your way to prevent having to deal effectively with customer service problems.  To some extent, we are all "trained" to accept and to expect crummy service from our cable and telephone providers.  Why?  Because, to a great extent, they are government protected monopolies and we have no competitive choices; they know that and they act like they know that.  We do have choice with most of the others.  We should exercise that power of choice when we consistently receive bad service.
 

 

[linuxid10t]

Ricmiclaw, I am so sorry you have had such a bad experience with Grado.  While I am at it, I like the fact that you have replied to pretty much everyone in this thread.  It is nice to see someone has such dedication.  Anyway, I personally had a good experience with customer service recently.  I had bought my friend a pair of Koss Portapros a while ago. Fairly recently, he was in a very bad bicycle accident while wearing his Portapros.  He ended up breaking his wrist in several different places and got a plate put into it.  This bicycle accident was COMPLETELY his fault.  He had decided that tornado debris was an excellent thing to make a makeshift bicycle ramp out of.  Back to Koss though.  The headphones were completely destroyed Called Koss customer service, told them exactly what happened.  You know what they said, they would cover them under THEIR WARRANTY.  It wasn't any fault of theirs that the headphones were destroyed and they still covered it.  I was completely amazed.  BTW, does anyone know how Sennheisers customer service is?  I am just curious if anyone has had experience with them.